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Old 08-15-2017, 03:56 PM   #1
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Single pane windows vs dual pane

I believe that the front windows in 15As 17s and 19s are single pane only, but I could be wrong. If it is correct then quite a few owners have a mix of single and dual pane windows.

My question is, can anyone tell the difference between single pane and dual pane windows in terms of condensation, sound, insulation?

My trailer has dual pane in all but the door, which is too small to notice a difference.

Thanks for your responses.
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Old 08-15-2017, 04:04 PM   #2
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Yes, the difference is observable. The single glazed front window on my 19 always has much more condensation than the other windows. But that's the price of the rock guard/awning. Not an issue for me, just a minor nuisance.

As far as sound goes I don't think it's a factor, at least not for me. When I close the windows by the bed campground sounds just fade away.

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Old 08-15-2017, 04:37 PM   #3
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While we don't have dual pane, so I can't comment on that, I can say that so far, the only time we have had a condensation issue was the first time we ran the AC one hot night and did not leave windows open. Lesson learned after that, and as long as we have proper ventilation, we have no issues.

As far as sound, we always sleep with windows open, so single pane, or dual pane, probably does not matter.
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Old 08-15-2017, 04:46 PM   #4
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Escape 21 is the only model without the front, Viajante, is that your model. and depending on year, your door class is also double paned. As far as condensation, a piece of reflective installed in the winter either permanently or temp takes acre of any issue with condensation. The new frameless should help considerably.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:34 PM   #5
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I talked with a rep from rv window industry on the topic of single pane vs dual pane.

Customers demand dual pane because of the perceived insulation value (thinking of their home thermopanes) and the industry delivered. The fact is there is almost no difference.

The 1/4" airspace is insignificant in R value. As pointed out in a previous thread, the frames conduct cold temps to a degree that outweighs any insulation value. The cost of adding an insulating barrier to the frame is prohibitive. A 1/2" airspace in home windows provides a dramatic increase in R value, and no aluminum frames.

The sound attenuation value of dual pane is about the same as laminated glass in a car windshield. Some value there, but not significant.

Condensation is less in dual pane. But, it can be managed, or is a small annoyance.

The downside of dual pane is the fogging problem, which is apparently common.

I'm just researching the value of some options and passing the word along.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:40 PM   #6
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ROFL ROFL ROFL... sounds like to me the rep never camped in a travel trailer in the shoulder seasons with single-pane windows.

The difference in condensation between my Scamp (single pane) and Ten Forward is HUGE. Yes I know t.here 7 more feet of interior space, but I've never, ever had to wipe the windows down in Ten Forward where with my Scamp it was a constant battle. The entire length of Ten Forward feels dry where the Scamp always felt damp. I think that rep needs to go to school....

Small annoyance? Not even.
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:46 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Donna D. View Post
ROFL ROFL ROFL... sounds like to me the rep never camped in a travel trailer in the shoulder seasons with single-pane windows.

The difference in condensation between my Scamp (single pane) and Ten Forward is HUGE. Yes I know t.here 7 more feet of interior space, but I've never, ever had to wipe the windows down in Ten Forward where with my Scamp it was a constant battle. The entire length of Ten Forward feels dry where the Scamp always felt damp. I think that rep needs to go to school....

Small annoyance? Not even.
Tell it like it is Donna Absolutely agree. I know about ventilation etc. to reduce condensation but the fact is that there are times when it's cold, the humidity is high and condensation is likely. The difference between the two types isn't insignificant. It's the difference between water running down the wall and having to be wiped up and mild or no condensation.

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Old 08-16-2017, 11:58 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Ron in BC View Post
Yes, the difference is observable. The single glazed front window on my 19 always has much more condensation than the other windows. But that's the price of the rock guard/awning. Not an issue for me, just a minor nuisance.

As far as sound goes I don't think it's a factor, at least not for me. When I close the windows by the bed campground sounds just fade away.

Ron
Sorry Ron, I thought you were in agreement with the rep that condensation was a minor annoyance. Must have misread your post.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:00 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Donna D. View Post
ROFL ROFL ROFL... sounds like to me the rep never camped in a travel trailer in the shoulder seasons with single-pane windows.

The difference in condensation between my Scamp (single pane) and Ten Forward is HUGE. Yes I know t.here 7 more feet of interior space, but I've never, ever had to wipe the windows down in Ten Forward where with my Scamp it was a constant battle. The entire length of Ten Forward feels dry where the Scamp always felt damp. I think that rep needs to go to school....

Small annoyance? Not even.
No argument that the insulation value is negligable?
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:05 AM   #10
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I have dual pane windows on my current trailer. I thought it would be good for insulation. Now I'm finding out it's not. That interested me and thought I'd try to put the facts out.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:11 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Viajante View Post
Sorry Ron, I thought you were in agreement with the rep that condensation was a minor annoyance. Must have misread your post.
Like many things in life, sometimes a negative isn't the end of the world and you live with it but the difference between the two isn't insignificant. But dealing with it is just part of our routine. Open front blind, wipe up condensation before it runs down the wall. If I could have paid a few bucks more and had the front window double glazed I certainly would have.

Ron
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:39 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Ron in BC View Post
Like many things in life, sometimes a negative isn't the end of the world and you live with it but the difference between the two isn't insignificant. But dealing with it is just part of our routine. Open front blind, wipe up condensation before it runs down the wall. If I could have paid a few bucks more and had the front window double glazed I certainly would have.

Ron
Well said.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:44 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Viajante View Post
Customers demand dual pane because of the perceived insulation value (thinking of their home thermopanes) and the industry delivered. The fact is there is almost no difference.
...
Condensation is less in dual pane. But, it can be managed, or is a small annoyance.
The statement that there is an insignificant difference in R value conflicts with the statement that there is a difference in condensation. There is only less condensation with dual pane because the interior surface is warmer, and that surface is warmer only because there is less heat loss, which is due to higher insulation value.

Perhaps what he meant to say was that the change in heat loss due to the difference in glazing is not significant compared to the heat loss through the frames. Thermal break frames would be nice... although even just composite (fiberglass) frames would be better than aluminum.

As for the air gap information...
From a technical paper, it appears that a 1/4" (6.4 mm) gap is about 80% as effective as a 1/2" (12.7 mm). That's reasonably consistent with actual experience in houses and RVs... the dual panes are usefully effective, even in the skinny version.
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:11 AM   #14
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Ahhh Ventilation / condensation .... what an unsexy subject ... but Ohhh so important! I'm a home remodeler and I can't tell you how many 'arguments' I have had with many of my customers over this topic. Ventilation just isn't sexy... most would rather spend their money on areas that show. I get that. What really makes me feel good, more than my paycheck, is when that customer that I had that ventilation discussion a couple years back calls me up ....
"Ahhh Tom do you remember our discussion about adding that venting fan in my ceiling?"
"Yes customer, I do"
Well, I need to tell you that since you worked on my house, my daughter, wife, etc., has had no more problems with their allergies or asthma. I want to thank you! Its that ventilation".

That really feels good!

Our trailers are really susceptible to condensation. Much worst than the comparative large volume areas of a house .... complicated by our unvententing fiberglass shells. Most people don't realize how much water vapor we each put out.... breathing, showering, cooking, wet clothes, etc. I find (although I have never camped in really cold temps) that I need to perhaps nudge up the thermostat a little and crack a couple windows away from where I'm sleeping and crack open the cover on my Fantastic Fan. If I'm still getting condensation on window glass or frames, add a little power to the fan. There will be a balance there somewhere. Air has little mass so it doesn't take much energy to heat it ... warm air will absorb much more moisture and by venting both, you will be able to save yourself the health effects of mold and mildews as well as have lower maintenance costs on your trailer.

Still have condensation problems? .... add more heat or more effective ... more ventilation. Maybe add more blankets and increase the ventilation. We love our fiberglass trailers for their lack of roof leaks but the other side of the coin is that they don't breathe either. In my business, I find that condensation causes much more damage ($$$$) than roof leaks ever have.

Tom
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Old 08-17-2017, 08:08 AM   #15
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Memories: Back in my college days in Colorado, and friend and I went on a mid-winter ski weekend and thought we would save money on a hotel room by just sleeping in sleeping bags in the back of his Ford Ranchero with a camper shell. No heat, but more importantly, no ventilation. My sleeping bag was warm enough, but I woke up in the middle of the night with frost around my mouth and nose from the moisture in my exhaled breath. Ventilation is important for many reasons!!
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:30 PM   #16
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I find that condensation causes much more damage ($$$$) than roof leaks ever have.Tom
So true! I think that's why stickies get in trouble. Water vapour gets trapped inside the exterior wall cavities. Moulded fiberglass trailers don't have any exterior wall cavities for vapour to collect.

Our first Escape had single pane windows and we wiped them every morning except in very dry climates. Now, with dual glazed windows, we just need to dry off the front window and we're good. Its more convenient with dual glazed but there's a cost in both dollars and weight.

While the actual R-value (RSI for the Canucks) is only a marginal improvement, the windows do feel warmer when you are sitting close to them.
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