2017 2nd gen. 5.0 T/A built with 3" frame not 4"

[Tin]

Hi all,
I must admit I am a little perplex, this whole time I thought the 5.0 T/A's where built with 4"x2" tube steel as discussed on many post relating to the 3" frame recall "The 21 and 5.0 T/A our built on 4"x 2" frame". There is a on going post discussing the failure of a 3" frame on a 19 with though bolts, so last night I went out to verify my frame and bolting just to find out the main frame from Pin Box to Rear Bumper is 3"x2"x 1/8" thick tube steel. Did I miss a post discussing this change? Where the 1st gen 21 and 5.0T/A's built on 4"x 2" frames ? are 2nd gen 21 built on 4" or 3" frames? just a little confused.
Tin.

[Fournier]

in the brochure on the web site Escape !!!!!The frames are constructed with 4” box steel!!!!

i dont understand too.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Fournier

in the brochure on the web site Escape !!!!!The frames are constructed with 4” box steel!!!!

i dont understand too.

Same I thought maybe I missed something.

[Jim Bennett]

I posted this in the frame break thread, but this seems like a better place.

--------------------

All 5.0TAs use 3"x2" tube for the frame. Not sure how many attachment points are underneath the lower part of the shell, but the loft has eight 5/16" bolts anchoring it to the frame. I would bet given the design of the frame/shell layout and anchoring, this is one stiff setup. With the 19, there is WAY more flexure on the frame out to the tongue, especially with the 3" frame.

edit to add - Along with other components, it is a good idea to check the tightness of these mounting bolts. I plan to do mine when it warms up here. Probably not necessary every year (maybe other than the first), but something to think about periodically.

[Oldtimer]

I’m going to be talking to ETI about this issue while I’m up there this Friday

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

I’m going to be talking to ETI about this issue while I’m up there this Friday

I would be they would be hesitant to say too much.

[Oldtimer]

We shall see

[War Eagle]

Our 2017 21' has 4" tubing from the tongue all the way back to just behind the rear wheels (so coupler and both axles are attached to 4" tubing) along with welded pieces of angle iron for bolting cabin to frame. Just behind the rear wheels, a 3" piece is welded to the top of the 4" piece (where the dinette floor rises on the inside), and it's 3" tubing from there back to the rear bumper with bolts through the tubing (no angle iron) to attach the cabin in the rear part of the frame. So design wise, it seems like there is 4" tubing and angle iron for bolts where strength is needed (tongue to axles) and bolted-through 3" tubing for general support of the cabin after that. I can try to take photos if that doesn't make sense.

[Brian B-P]

Well, I'm surprised. At the time of the frame recall, it was made clear that the forward part of the frame had been switched to 4" tall on the 17' and 19' models. From the frame recall announcement thread:

Originally Posted by reace

For most of 2014, the 19' trailers were built with a 4" frame and about mid year the 15' and 17' trailers were also changed to a 4" frame. We have included all of the 2014 owners in this recall just to make sure we don't miss anyone.

The 21' was not included in this recall, the general understanding being that the frame was already 4" tall on the larger models (again in the main forward portion only). The fifth-wheels were not included - whatever the size of box section used - because this was an issue with the joint between the main frame rails and the tongue, which is entirely different in the fifth-wheels.

Putting aside the structural differences between fifth-wheel and conventional models for a moment, it would make no sense to use 4" tall box section for the 15', 17', and 19' models, but only 3" tall box section for the 21' model.

I'm pretty sure that I even measured 4" tall main rails in the 21' the last time I looked at display models, before the 2016 body style change. I have photos of the rear underside of two trailers from 2014 Apr 21; the 5.0TA was not built yet and these two are both tandems with some different details so they must be a 19' and a 21'. In these trailers, the main rails are twice as tall as they are wide so if they are only 3" tall they must be only 1.5" wide (which is the original Escape 17' frame size), but the main rails are wider than the rear rails (for the raised section)... it certainly appears that those main rails are 2"x4".
(From the same visit, I have a similar photo of a 17' with 1.5"x3" frame, both rear and main sections).

Now, moving on to the 5.0TA... this model is based on the rear body of the 21' (in both the first and second generations of body). The distance from axles to hitch is almost as long as the 21', and the centre of mass is further forward, so bending stress on the main frame rails near the front will be at least as high as the 21'. I don't see any rational reason to use smaller tubing in the main frame of the 5.0TA than in the corresponding part of the 21', but perhaps I've missed something (other than the effect of body stiffness as Jim mentioned).

I wouldn't be so concerned about the 2"x3" box in the section of the 5.0TA frame which goes up and over the truck, because the closer you are from the point of support the lower the bending stress.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

All 5.0TAs use 3"x2" tube for the frame.

Are you sure about that, Jim? I mean, do you specifically know about each variant of the 5.0TA? Yours and Tin's have 3" tall tubing (and apparently 2" wide, unlike earlier 3" tall sections), but this is the third variant of the 5.0TA:

1. 2014-2015: classic body, beam axle and leaf springs
2. 2016: classic body, Torflex
3. 2017: new body, Torflex

The change in suspension required some detail changes in the frame (as little as just the mounting brackets), and the change in body required in increase in the width between the frame rails of about four inches (perhaps changing only the crossmembers). There could have as many as three variants of the frame, with dimensional changes possible between any of them.

[Brian B-P]

From the frame break thread (but more relevant here):

Originally Posted by Chris R

My 2016 5TA is all 3 x 2, no 4 inch anywhere or rear step.

Chris, I assume that the trailer is your customized 2015 (and "2016" was just a typo), and early enough to have the beam axles and leaf springs. That would be the earliest of the 5.0TAs, covering one more of the three possible 5.0TA variants.

My understanding is the early 5.0TAs and 21's had no step up in the floor, but the frame still stepped up at the back (the floor was apparently dropped 3" between the frame rails in the dinette area to eliminate the step). Chris, are you saying that your frame doesn't step up, or just that the rear section doesn't have 4 inch tubing?

[Jim Bennett]

I have always been under the impression that the 5.0TA frame has always been 3" tall. Any I have paid attention to regarding this were.

The 21 always was 4". The 19 did change from 3" to 4".

As far as I know, there was no change in any frames with the new shells, just wider axles. At least the first one out of the new mould that Reace showed me was definitely this way, and had the old axles looking a bit funny. He said at the time they would use wider axles.

The step up frame is new in the new model 5.0TA. This is a link to Chris's floor mod in the dinette area showing this. He and others raised the floor there.
https://escape440.files.wordpress.co...1/sam_5602.jpg

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

I have always been under the impression that the 5.0TA frame has always been 3" tall.

You're probably right, Jim, but impressions - especially those set by specs published by Escape - have been mistaken.

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

The 21 always was 4". The 19 did change from 3" to 4".

That seems to be the consensus.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

The step up frame is new in the new model 5.0TA.

The step-up floor (in a stock 21' or 5.0TA) is new (with the second body generation); it now follows the step in the frame (which Tin showed in his first post). As Reace explained:

Originally Posted by reace

The raised floor in the 21' and 5.0 TA were last minute changes. As we were focused on the 17' and 19' mold changes first, and they already had the raised floor.

A few years ago when we built the 21' and 5.0TA molds with the flat floor, it made sense. Unfortunately there were unforeseen production complications with this change that we have been dealing with for a couple of years now. This, along with the fact that we have had numerous complaints that the dinette seats are too high.

I believe that the seats were too high because they're on top of the stepped-up frame, and had a minimum height due to equipment mounted under them, such as the battery box and water heater. The battery box plus three inches is too tall.

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

This is a link to Chris's floor mod in the dinette area showing this. He and others raised the floor there.
https://escape440.files.wordpress.co...1/sam_5602.jpg

This is a raised "false" floor, unrelated to the structure - no step is added to the frame. The step up in a stock Escape's floor follows a step up in the frame.

See how the floor inside the curbside cabinet (left side in Chris's photo) is well above the height of the floor where people's feet go? The floor inside the cabinets (the seat bases) appears to be stepped up 3" above the general floor level of the rest of the trailer to clear the stepped frame.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

I posted this in the frame break thread, but this seems like a better place.

--------------------

All 5.0TAs use 3"x2" tube for the frame. Not sure how many attachment points are underneath the lower part of the shell, but the loft has eight 5/16" bolts anchoring it to the frame. I would bet given the design of the frame/shell layout and anchoring, this is one stiff setup. With the 19, there is WAY more flexure on the frame out to the tongue, especially with the 3" frame.

edit to add - Along with other components, it is a good idea to check the tightness of these mounting bolts. I plan to do mine when it warms up here. Probably not necessary every year (maybe other than the first), but something to think about periodically.

Hi Jim,
The only thing I can say is this is news to me, during the decision and research phase of our purchase I had read all the numerous pages regarding the frame recall and frame sizes in general. Many of these threads and post eluded to the fact that the 21 and 5.0 TA where built on 4" frames and I do not recall anyone refuting this information or clarifying. The information on Escapes own website and brochures confirmed the 5.0 TA where built on 4" frames so I had no reason to believe or think other whys. Yesterday after reading about the 3" frame failure of a 19 and viewing the pics, I identified several design, fabrication and installation short comings as they relate to the structural integrity of said 2012 19 trailer others also confirmed this and I have nothing to add many of the assessments made where spot on. As to your point " I would bet given the design of the frame/shell layout and anchoring, this is one stiff setup." I would tend to agree with you as both the shell and frame possess structural quality of their own. Please do not misinterpret my concerns or shock finding out the frame was 3" If Rease designed it and says it good then I have no problem with it. My wife and I both love our escape trailer and god willing we will have many years of enjoyment in it. As per Escape Trailers (Tammy and Reace) all I can say is they have been great! they have gone above and beyond regarding the few hiccups and their constant desire to improve their trailers and stand by them is a testament to their hard work and dedication I find great solace in this fact!

Tin.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

I’m going to be talking to ETI about this issue while I’m up there this Friday

Hi Oldtimer,
Please do and if you can post back that would be great. It would be good to know for current and future owners.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Our 2017 21' has 4" tubing from the tongue all the way back to just behind the rear wheels (so coupler and both axles are attached to 4" tubing) along with welded pieces of angle iron for bolting cabin to frame. Just behind the rear wheels, a 3" piece is welded to the top of the 4" piece (where the dinette floor rises on the inside), and it's 3" tubing from there back to the rear bumper with bolts through the tubing (no angle iron) to attach the cabin in the rear part of the frame. So design wise, it seems like there is 4" tubing and angle iron for bolts where strength is needed (tongue to axles) and bolted-through 3" tubing for general support of the cabin after that. I can try to take photos if that doesn't make sense.

Hi War Eagle,
Thanks for posting this info, it adds clarity which is always good.
and your description makes perfect sense.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Well, I'm surprised. At the time of the frame recall, it was made clear that the forward part of the frame had been switched to 4" tall on the 17' and 19' models. From the frame recall announcement thread:

The 21' was not included in this recall, the general understanding being that the frame was already 4" tall on the larger models (again in the main forward portion only). The fifth-wheels were not included - whatever the size of box section used - because this was an issue with the joint between the main frame rails and the tongue, which is entirely different in the fifth-wheels.

Putting aside the structural differences between fifth-wheel and conventional models for a moment, it would make no sense to use 4" tall box section for the 15', 17', and 19' models, but only 3" tall box section for the 21' model.

I'm pretty sure that I even measured 4" tall main rails in the 21' the last time I looked at display models, before the 2016 body style change. I have photos of the rear underside of two trailers from 2014 Apr 21; the 5.0TA was not built yet and these two are both tandems with some different details so they must be a 19' and a 21'. In these trailers, the main rails are twice as tall as they are wide so if they are only 3" tall they must be only 1.5" wide (which is the original Escape 17' frame size), but the main rails are wider than the rear rails (for the raised section)... it certainly appears that those main rails are 2"x4".
(From the same visit, I have a similar photo of a 17' with 1.5"x3" frame, both rear and main sections).

Now, moving on to the 5.0TA... this model is based on the rear body of the 21' (in both the first and second generations of body). The distance from axles to hitch is almost as long as the 21', and the centre of mass is further forward, so bending stress on the main frame rails near the front will be at least as high as the 21'. I don't see any rational reason to use smaller tubing in the main frame of the 5.0TA than in the corresponding part of the 21', but perhaps I've missed something (other than the effect of body stiffness as Jim mentioned).

I wouldn't be so concerned about the 2"x3" box in the section of the 5.0TA frame which goes up and over the truck, because the closer you are from the point of support the lower the bending stress.

Hi Brian B-P,
Thank you for all your post, I like your strait forwardness and all the facts and figures you present. But most importantly your honesty and unbiased opinions are most admirable. Oh and regarding your comments on structural members (I-beams,HSS,C-Channel or Concrete Beams) and openings though them, you are spot on horizontal and as close to center as possible.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

I would be they would be hesitant to say too much.

Hi Jim,
I find this statement odd ? I see clarity and transparency a good thing from any business.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Tin

Hi Jim,
I find this statement odd ? I see clarity and transparency a good thing from any business.

And I said it isn't? Good job reading more into what I said than what I meant.