Brain Games - Escape Trailer Owners Community
Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×

Go Back   Escape Trailer Owners Community > Escape Tech > Problem Solving | Owners helping each other
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-18-2015, 11:43 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
MyronL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
Brain Games

Never wanted an air conditioner and do not want a generator. These are bulky, loud, very expensive, and they bother people. But, we have them. Many of us depend upon them.

AC was not on my build list. Why disrupt the sleek, classic Escape roofline by adding a “top hat” to it? An air conditioner also protrudes down 3 inches. My head needs all the inside clearance I can get. Thinking, how often is AC really needed? Where’s the cost effectiveness?

Buy a generator? Everybody hates the guy next door who runs his stinky generator when we seniors are trying to enjoy a quiet game of Parcheesi, dinner in the woods, a DVD of Doc Martin, even reading. Who would dare run a generator overnight in a WalMart parking lot, or leave it unattended at Quartzsite?

Sure, these are issues easily resolved. We know exactly what our trailer needs to be happy. We have plenty of time to firm up the right personal build list. Yet from the first day I made my build list an inner struggle continued to dog my decision. Needs change. This week, necessity reached a tipping point. All the arguments for and against these two luxuries finally aligned in an order bound by more senior priorities.

I really like hitting the road. The reality is we are both getting on, and we need to be better prepared for camping conditions that will be more demanding, less convenient. Redneck ice chest? Not good enough. She don’t cool, she don’t cool. There are health issues. One of us in the trailer now currently depends upon an oxygen concentrator at night, a big thing. It requires electricity. What’s next?

Must act. Got Uncle Sam money back this year, so no need to dip into the egg money. I am ready to upgrade. The question becomes which purchase to do, air conditioner or generator? It will be one or the other.

A generator is the perfect, all-purpose, emergency power source. Very nice to have one because you never know. You can get a Honda 2000i retro-fitted for propane. Nice idea, eliminates gasoline storage issues. Propane is always there on the tongue. Aren’t Hondas quiet and reliable? Couldn’t I hide it in the truck bed? Done: My first choice is go for the generator. That was easy.

Since in my build list I didn’t choose it, now must add a dedicated, quick-connect propane fitting to the trailer exterior. (Factory install was $160.) Nice, it then serves any use, be it generator, Barbie stove, etc. No crawling under the trailer for me. I’ll install it right at the tank low-pressure regulator. So, I done it. Feeling a tad queasy, but good. Now ready to go online, order the modified Honda propane-fired generator. Arf!

Then, so quickly, what? Having second thoughts. Thought I was sold, had it figured, but my inner Jack Benny begins kicking in. Someone told me once, “When you want the car you want the car,” meaning testosterone often causes blindness. The generator is a big dollar bite. Brain, sure you got this right? What’s generating this hesitancy and confliction? Need a second opinion, validation. Decided must talk to my friend Dave about this. Dave knows stuff.
A new view emerges: All campsites have quiet hours. I forgot that! So, you can’t run a generator all night for an oxygen concentrator. Have no clue how much electricity an oxygen concentrator requires. Why take a chance with battery power? Plus, if ever needed at the house the propane-modified Honda we like don’t run on gasoline.

Now the biggie: When on shore power you can use the air conditioner, and an oxygen concentrator, or any such appliance, and run both all night if needed. Shore power sites are now looking like the smarter, more practical (cost effective) move. Buying an air conditioner online instead of the generator also saves around $500 bucks up front. Trailer is built AC ready. I can do this. Why not also be a good neighbor? So jeepers, what was I thinking?

Say, I could put the savings toward a new Weber, like Dave’s. I did the exterior propane quick-connect. Brain games, eh?
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
MyronL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 12:51 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
KarenH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Bellingham and Glacier, Washington
Trailer: 2013 Escape 15A
Posts: 2,051
Send a message via Skype™ to KarenH
I don't know what an oxygen concentrator is but if it's anything like a CPAP machine, check out this thread:

http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f3...ines-3742.html
__________________
Karen Hulford
2013 Escape 15A, "Egbert"
'93 Ford 150 XLT or
'22 GMC Acadia Denali
KarenH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 01:23 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southwick, Massachusetts
Trailer: None, sold my 2014 5.0TA
Posts: 7,124
Have the Honda 2000i, it's quiet as far a generators go, but still noisy to my ears. Haven't used it for the 5.0TA but when I used it with the bumper pull I'd leave it in the bed of the truck when running, with the truck cap on, still noisy. I think an A/C might drown it out. I really dislike using the generator while camping. Ran it one time in a state park, went for a walk while it ran. Someone turned it off while we were gone, can't really blame them.

I've had the generator 8 years, needed it while camping probably less then half a dozen times, about the same amount of times I used the A/C. It ended up being more useful for home backup, use it has seen during power outages in both summers and winters. If you go to non hookup sites and stay for 5 or more days without solar, it is good to have.

If I lived in NM, I'd get the A/C first and head for hookups when you need to.
__________________
Happy Motoring
Bob
padlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 01:31 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kelowna, British Columbia
Trailer: 2008 Escape 17b
Posts: 1,868
Some trucks have a 400 watt auxiliary plug in in the back of their truck beds. Can/could this be used to top up trailer batteries?
J Mac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 01:48 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Phoenix Metro Area, Arizona
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19
Posts: 767
I know ETI says it works but the Honda 2000 is not enough to run the A/C in the summer in the Southwest. It will BARELY start once, but not restart when it is really hot. Which IS when you need it. I do not know the actual no-go temp, but over 100 it will not restart when hot.

If you don't need the A/C you probably don't need the generator - you can probably run the concentrator on battery power (or with an inverter) - do verify that.

I would get the A/C for sure. And figure on using hookup sites for A/C weather. I got (and like the Boliye 3600.) But I would look at all the Chicom inverter generators. Not as good as the Honda, but much cheaper.
jamman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 01:57 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Vermilye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Oswego, New York
Trailer: 2017 Escape 21C, 2018 Ford F150
Posts: 5,363
You might want to check with the propane generator supplier to be sure it can run on the low pressure (11 inch water pressure) side of your trailer. Most have a regulator as part of the kit & I don't know if it is the same pressure.

As to the oxygen concentrator, it depends on whatmake & model you have. My late wife's drew close to 1000 watts running, but there are models that draw less.

With the high power oxygen concentrators, you will probaably have to choose between the AC and the concentrator....
__________________
Jon Vermilye My Travel Blog
Travel and Photo Web Page ... My Collection of RV Blogs 2018 F150 3.5EB, 2017 21
Vermilye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 02:04 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Ventura County, California
Trailer: 2015 Escape 17A
Posts: 2,344
Myron,
The A/C and generator debate was one that we had while developing our build list. We wanted A/C, but do indeed boondock around AZ and Southern CA.
We decided that when A/C is really necessary, we would go to shore power locations. So we got A/C.
SO that left the generator question: we id'ed two uses: (1)to run A/C (and microwave) in lieu of shore power; (2)emergency generator for home.
I found conversion kits to modify Honda 2000i's to 3 way-gasoline/propane/natural gas. So it could work off the trailer supply, or from our home nat.gas for emergencies.
So far, we've shelved the idea as too expensive to do for now, and we really don't like generator noise around when we camp, so probably would not use it. But, if we find a good deal, we may go for it for emergencies.
dfandrews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 02:46 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Phoenix Metro Area, Arizona
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19
Posts: 767
I cannot find anything definitive but be aware that propane has about 10% less energy per pound than gasoline. I *believe* that bifuel generators should be derated by 10% when using propane. See the following for some evidence (but no clear cut answer) of this: https://powersuite.cummins.com/PS5/P...ets/a-1399.pdf
jamman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 03:29 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
Propane does have less energy per unit volume than gasoline (because it is less dense), but slightly more energy per unit mass than gasoline.

That doesn't really matter to power output, anyway. The output of an engine converted to LPG (propane) is typically lower because the fuel is delivered in vapour form through a carburettor, displacing air, in contrast to gasoline which is delivered as a spray of liquid droplets. There's simply more air+fuel mixture going into the gasoline engine (carburetted or fuel injected) than into a carburetted propane engine. I doubt anyone sells a small general-purpose engine for uses such as an RV generator which has liquid propane injection; certainly a Honda generator with an RV conversion kit won't have liquid injection.

The end result is that, yes, a non-turbocharged engine converted from gasoline to propane without internal modifications will have a lower peak power output.
Brian B-P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 03:47 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
MyronL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
Karen, an Oxygen Concentrator is a machine "...designed to concentrate room air to help ease your breathing." When one's oxygen intake levels are unstable, a doctor may prescribe using a concentrator. It's a plugged in machine that sends continuous oxygen via a tube (nasal cannula) to your nose.
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
MyronL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 08:53 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
MyronL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
One of the seven wires sending signals from the tow alternator to the trailer charges trailer battery. Heard the (discontinued but readily available) Dometic 11,000 BTU works fine with the Honda 2000i but the bigger 13,500 BTU has the issues. Our Concentrator is a ”Perfecto2.” Interestingly, found no data plate listing its certified electrical stats, AMP draw, etc. The converted Honda does in fact run low pressure, am told. There are two versions of converted Hondas. One is 3-way, propane, natural gas and gasoline but the conversion package is outside the case. It looks vulnerable. The other version is propane/nat gas only, $200 more expensive, made by GenConneX™Direct, but the conversion is inside the case.
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
MyronL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 10:29 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Phoenix Metro Area, Arizona
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19
Posts: 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyronL View Post
One of the seven wires sending signals from the tow alternator to the trailer charges trailer battery. Heard the (discontinued but readily available) Dometic 11,000 BTU works fine with the Honda 2000i but the bigger 13,500 BTU has the issues. Our Concentrator is a ”Perfecto2.” Interestingly, found no data plate listing its certified electrical stats, AMP draw, etc. The converted Honda does in fact run low pressure, am told. There are two versions of converted Hondas. One is 3-way, propane, natural gas and gasoline but the conversion package is outside the case. It looks vulnerable. The other version is propane/nat gas only, $200 more expensive, made by GenConneX™Direct, but the conversion is inside the case.
The manual for the concentrator: http://www.invacare.com/doc_files/1143482.pdf

The manual says says 3A so 360 watts so 30 amp hours per hour @ 12V. (Assuming 120V AC and a perfect inverter.) Conclusion - you need 120V for overnight usage. With most/all campgrounds having quiet hours (no generators) after 10PM you will need to have hookups - so get the A/C and skip the generator.
jamman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2015, 10:36 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
float5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Denison, Texas
Trailer: 2015 21'; 2011 19' sold; 4Runner; ph ninezero3 327-27ninefour
Posts: 5,136
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyronL View Post
One of the seven wires sending signals from the tow alternator to the trailer charges trailer battery. Heard the (discontinued but readily available) Dometic 11,000 BTU works fine with the Honda 2000i but the bigger 13,500 BTU has the issues. Our Concentrator is a ”Perfecto2.” Interestingly, found no data plate listing its certified electrical stats, AMP draw, etc. The converted Honda does in fact run low pressure, am told. There are two versions of converted Hondas. One is 3-way, propane, natural gas and gasoline but the conversion package is outside the case. It looks vulnerable. The other version is propane/nat gas only, $200 more expensive, made by GenConneX™Direct, but the conversion is inside the case.
Myron, I also found 3 amps on a site, invacare, as Jamman did. Don't know what your panels put out but maybe that can work. You have a good solar knowledge, more than mine.
__________________
Cathy. Floating Cloud
"Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.... "
Emerson
float5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2015, 07:26 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Phoenix Metro Area, Arizona
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19
Posts: 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamman View Post
The manual for the concentrator: http://www.invacare.com/doc_files/1143482.pdf

The manual says says 3A so 360 watts so 30 amp hours per hour @ 12V. (Assuming 120V AC and a perfect inverter.) Conclusion - you need 120V for overnight usage. With most/all campgrounds having quiet hours (no generators) after 10PM you will need to have hookups - so get the A/C and skip the generator.
Myron, hang on a minute. I gave you a worst case scenario. I assumed full power draw the whole time. IF the concentrator cycles, or draws less than rated power, you might be able to make it with your dual 6V batteries and 600W inverter. (Your inverter is true sine wave which is a good idea for medical equipment and is big enough for the concentrator.)

Get a "Kill A Watt" (KaW): P3 P4400 Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor - Low Temperature Alarms - Amazon.com

It can tell you the total KWH used over time. Just before Nancy turns on the concentrator, plug the KaW into the wall and the concentrator into the KaW. In the morning use the KWH/Hour key and write down the total time and KWH used. KaW maual here: http://www.p3international.com/manuals/p4400_manual.pdf

Multiply the KWH by 1000 and divide by 13 - the result will be 12V amp-hours - call it X. (I used 13 instead of 12 to allow for inverter losses.) Since you have the dual 6V batteries you have a max of 232 amp-hours, of which only half are usable if you want decent battery life. Knock off a few more for other things and you have about 100 amp-hours for the concentrator. (Assuming you run a generator every day and can fully recharge the batteries.)

If X is more than 100 you need additional battery capacity or hookups. If X is significantly less than 100 you may be able to recharge with your solar panels alone.

OR - if you are both felling really brave, you could spend a night in the trailer (not plugged into the house) with the concentrator on the inverter and see what happens. (Worse case - the inverter alarms for low battery, you get up and plug the trailer into the house and the concentrator into a non-inverter outlet. Best case - you get a good night's sleep and the batteries are not too low.)

Edit: Corrected a units conversion error.
jamman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2015, 08:49 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
MyronL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
Wow, great stuff, thanks Doug. You are da man. I will look into this further. I just ordered that Kill-a-watt from amazon.

Interesting and unexpected side note on my batteries: After our recent trip, when we returned I emptied the fridge and thought I had shut it down- it had been on battery while towing home - Morningstar and Xantrex showing 12.6v, then went back in two days later to clean up, etc and immediately noticed my Morningstar battery monitor showing 9.5 volts! Yikes! The fridge was still on battery power. How did that happen!??! So, immediately plugged trailer in to shore power from the garage. It took five+ days for the battery to reach 12.7 volts, and a couple days later it seemed stuck at that level. Now I am really worried. I then set up my 100watt solar panels, hoping for a bigger boost. Had a couple days of full sun-- monitor finally went up to 13.1 volts.
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
MyronL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2015, 11:04 AM   #16
Senior Member
 
bdornbush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Trailer: 2015 19 foot
Posts: 439
We have a Kill A Watt and have found it useful for more things. When I get to a campground, I plug it into the campground power to check that it is decent voltage. I had an electrical failure once and used it to help troubleshoot so I always carry it with me on camping trips.
bdornbush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2015, 11:26 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
MyronL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
Makes sense. I just checked and my trailer battery, on solar, seems to be holding at 13.15 volts on the Morningstar. After a couple cloudy days hoping today's sunshine will get it up higher. Nervous.

The operators manual is 28 pages. Spoke with Concentrator supplier. They will get me one.

Also today, ordered the Dometic 11,000 btu Penguin Low Profile, and the ceiling assembly, from AdventureRV.net ...at $745.92 including shipping and insurance. ()
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
MyronL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 02:27 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
MyronL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
Kill A Watt usage monitor came in the mail today. I immediately plugged the oxygen concentrator in. Amps readings cycled continuously from 2.53 to 2.82 amps.
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
MyronL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 04:39 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Phoenix Metro Area, Arizona
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19
Posts: 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyronL View Post
Kill A Watt usage monitor came in the mail today. I immediately plugged the oxygen concentrator in. Amps readings cycled continuously from 2.53 to 2.82 amps.
I am ASSUMING the oxygen is ONLY needed during the night.

For 8 hours you need 2.67 amps (average of 2.53 and 2.82) X 120 volts X 8 hours = 2563 watt hours. Divide by 13 (to allow for inverter losses) = 197 amp hours at 12 volts. This means 4 of the 6V Interstate batteries ETI uses to avoid going below 50% charge. And then you need to charge them up during the day. You will need a generator and a better converter/charger than the WFCO ETI uses to get this done in a reasonable amount of time.

(You COULD get another big 12V battery, and use the truck battery, the new one, and the 2x6V in the trailer to make it one night. Or combine batteries plus oxygen cylinders.)

Realistically, you will probably have to stick to electrical hookup sites for more than 1 night stays.
jamman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2015, 04:48 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
MyronL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
Correct, oxygen (currently) needed only at night. So, I need 197 amp hrs. running overnight. Your calculations very much appreciated, Doug. Well, I'm not going to replace the factory install WFCO. Guess it will be hook-ups for us.
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
MyronL is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Escape Trailer Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 2023 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.