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Old 07-08-2015, 11:29 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by jennykatz View Post
Anyway instead of elec brakes with controlle why not go with Elec /over hydraulic like the big boats have .You use hydraulics to stop Disc brakes and elec motor to push hydraulics fluid which is tied into your brake lights no contolerr...
That's not how electric-over-hydraulic brakes are controlled. They get the same electrical signal as conventional electric brakes, and the same type of controller is needed to determine how hard to apply the trailer brakes. If you connected the actuator (the part with the motor and hydraulic pump) directly to the brake lights the trailer brakes would slam on full-power whenever you touched the tow vehicle brakes, and it would make the lockup problems currently under discussion look minor

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Originally Posted by jennykatz View Post
... using disc brakes are a lot better then elec magnetic for stopping .
There's an electromagnet in both cases - it's just a matter of whether it is inside the drum (conventional electric trailer brakes) or in the electric-over-hydraulic actuator (where is in a motor). In the conventional electric trailer brake the stopping is done by brakes shoes pushed against the drum, not by the magnets directly. Disk brakes are better than drum brakes in most ways, and that's why electric-over-hydraulic systems are usually chosen - to enable the use of disks.

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Originally Posted by jennykatz View Post
I guess this system costs more then elec magnetic but from all my research the elec brakes seem to be a PITA with contolle,r magnets etc .With elec/over Hydraulic there is less to go wrong much more like what we drive (cars ,trucks)
Both systems have the same controller, which is a reasonably simple device now that they are electronic. The magnet of a conventional electric drum trailer brake is very simple - simpler than the electric-over hydraulic actuator. The mechanism in a drum to move the shoes is more complex than a disk brake caliper, but the electric drum system avoids the complication of hydraulics. Overall, an electric-over-hydraulic disk brake system for a trailer is more complicated than the conventional setup, and much more expensive.

The actuator alone would cost more than all of the conventional brake parts on the trailer. Every other part would be at least as expensive (and in the case of hydraulic lines instead of wires, much more expensive) than the corresponding conventional part. This is in part just a matter of how common the parts are.

Yes, an electric-over-hydraulic system running disk brakes is very much like what we have in the tow vehicle. On the other hand, many motor vehicles still have drum brakes (in the rear only), and they don't have a lot of problems - I think fewer than trailers. There could be many causes, but they might include the fact that trailers are only infrequently used (so stuff rusts) and that trailer parts are generally cheap junk compared to what the market demands for cars and trucks.

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Originally Posted by jennykatz View Post
I wonder if ETI would do this system for me ?
I can't speak for Escape Trailer Industries, but I would be surprised if they would agree to do it. It would mean ordering different brakes from Dexter, installing hydraulic lines instead of wiring from the wheels to the tongue, supplying and installing an electric-over-hydraulic actuator, and finally selling a system which which they are not familiar. The Lil Snoozy's surge/disk system is simpler (nothing electrical), and the trailer and chassis manufacturers are familiar with it.

On the other hand, as long as you don't get the underside covered in foam insulation, the whole system could be installed later with no problems - it would just mean throwing away (or giving to someone else) the hub/drums and brake assemblies. I suggest trying the stock system, and upgrading later if desired. You'll need the same controller in the tug either way.

I'm sorry that this all sounds quite negative, but the reality is not as nice as the ideal sounds. I do agree that there are better braking systems, and that it is worth considering them.


Example actuator: Dexter DX Series
Other examples and pricing: Electric-Hydraulic Brake Actuators at eTrailer
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Old 07-08-2015, 05:28 PM   #42
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Brakes

The reason I posted this was hearing of all the problems with these elec brakes .My friend uses the Titan EHB for his tandem axcel boat trailer . I just spoke with him and he said he does not have the controller in his Lincoln navigator . The brakes work Great with a 8000lb boat and trailer . When looking this up I see it works in unison with a brake contoller? So either he is unaware of a controller in the Lincoln ( it has a towing option though) which I doubt or it can work without one .
I guess I like the way disc brakes work . BTW my surge brakes work great on a 2500lb Snoozy trailer .
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:10 PM   #43
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I do not have a separate brake controller box in my truck, the brake controller is integral and built in by the factory. I just hook up and go, perhaps your friend is using one without knowing it in his Navigator ....?
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:18 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennykatz View Post
The reason I posted this was hearing of all the problems with these elec brakes .My friend uses the Titan EHB for his tandem axcel boat trailer . I just spoke with him and he said he does not have the controller in his Lincoln navigator . The brakes work Great with a 8000lb boat and trailer . When looking this up I see it works in unison with a brake contoller? So either he is unaware of a controller in the Lincoln ( it has a towing option though) which I doubt or it can work without one .
I guess I like the way disc brakes work . BTW my surge brakes work great on a 2500lb Snoozy trailer .
Jenny, if his boat trailer has electric brakes, the only way they work is to be actuated by a brake controller in the tow vehicle. He's either towing without trailer brakes, or there is an integrated brake controller in the Lincoln. I have an integrated brake controller in my F150 by the way, and its the best brake controller I've ever used.
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:24 PM   #45
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Most boat trailers use surge brakes - no controller needed. Electric brakes don't like to be submerged.
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:31 PM   #46
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Most boat trailers use surge brakes - no controller needed. Electric brakes don't like to be submerged.
Ah, that would explain it. Probably surge brakes.
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:53 PM   #47
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Ah, that would explain it. Probably surge brakes.
That is the normal explanation for no controller, but I don't think that's the case here - Jenny is familiar with the surge-activated setup on her Lil Snoozy, and specifically mentioned the Titan EHB on her friend's trailer. Titan does make surge actuators, but that wouldn't be an EHB.

Ideally a Navigator would have the same factory controller as an F-150 (as Robert has shown), because they share the same platform; however, I don't think the Lincoln Navigator (or Ford Expedition) has kept up with changes to the F-150, or has all the same equipment. The Heavy-Duty Trailer Tow Package listed on the options page includes only "brake module wiring", which implies no integrated controller. Integrated controllers are quite new to light-duty pickups (and SUVs).

A remote-control controller can be mounted on the trailer, but I hope the owner would know about that.

I have no idea how a Titan EHB could run a boat trailer's brakes acceptably without a controller. A really weak brake system could be full-powered whenever the brake lights go on without locking up, but it wouldn't brake sufficiently to be acceptable when it is really needed.
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Old 07-08-2015, 07:56 PM   #48
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Most boat trailers use surge brakes - no controller needed. Electric brakes don't like to be submerged.
I think it's mostly wiring connections don't like to be submerged, and everything doesn't like to be submerged in salt water! I agree, this is the big reason for the popularity of surge brakes on boats. It may be a reason for disk brakes for boats, too, as they don't hold water like drums.

There are corrosion-resistant electric brakes specifically for boat trailers.

This isn't really about brake lock-up, but I've seen the electric-over-hydraulic disk brake setup Jenny describes on a military boat trailer. The actuator was mounted on a post on the tongue to keep it up out of the water.
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Old 07-08-2015, 08:09 PM   #49
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Titan does make surge actuators, but that wouldn't be an EHB.
Right you are. Missed the mention of the Titan EHB. Their documentation specifically states that a brake controller in the tow vehicle is required to use the Titan EHB.
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Old 07-09-2015, 09:46 AM   #50
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brakes

I talked again to my friend last night at dinner He affirmed that his Titan E/H brakes did not have a controller in the Lincoln Navigator ?He might have a different model then the EHB . I think the controller is in the Titan E/H brakes instead of the truck or car ? The elec over Hydraulic brakes are used on boat trailers to control braking instead of the surge braking .I believe they are mandatory for boats over 3000lb in Canada .
We belong to another forum for boats C-Brats.com and a lot of the owners have these elec./over hydraulic brakes for the 25and 26 ft c-dory boats . I do believe that elec brakes or E/H brakes are the way to go if one has a trailer over 3000lb and travels in the mountains .Surge brakes can be scary sometimes going down slick boat ramps because surge brakes have no braking in reverse . That is why most trailer mfg will go to E/H brakes for there bigger boats . I wasn't trying to stir up problems just trying to figure out if other brakes would work on our fiberglass trailers . From a braking standpoint Disc brakes are the best . Jim (jennykatz is my daughters name )
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