Brake lock up

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by jennykatz

Anyway instead of elec brakes with controlle why not go with Elec /over hydraulic like the big boats have .You use hydraulics to stop Disc brakes and elec motor to push hydraulics fluid which is tied into your brake lights no contolerr...

That's not how electric-over-hydraulic brakes are controlled. They get the same electrical signal as conventional electric brakes, and the same type of controller is needed to determine how hard to apply the trailer brakes. If you connected the actuator (the part with the motor and hydraulic pump) directly to the brake lights the trailer brakes would slam on full-power whenever you touched the tow vehicle brakes, and it would make the lockup problems currently under discussion look minor

Originally Posted by jennykatz

... using disc brakes are a lot better then elec magnetic for stopping .

There's an electromagnet in both cases - it's just a matter of whether it is inside the drum (conventional electric trailer brakes) or in the electric-over-hydraulic actuator (where is in a motor). In the conventional electric trailer brake the stopping is done by brakes shoes pushed against the drum, not by the magnets directly. Disk brakes are better than drum brakes in most ways, and that's why electric-over-hydraulic systems are usually chosen - to enable the use of disks.

Originally Posted by jennykatz

I guess this system costs more then elec magnetic but from all my research the elec brakes seem to be a PITA with contolle,r magnets etc .With elec/over Hydraulic there is less to go wrong much more like what we drive (cars ,trucks)

Both systems have the same controller, which is a reasonably simple device now that they are electronic. The magnet of a conventional electric drum trailer brake is very simple - simpler than the electric-over hydraulic actuator. The mechanism in a drum to move the shoes is more complex than a disk brake caliper, but the electric drum system avoids the complication of hydraulics. Overall, an electric-over-hydraulic disk brake system for a trailer is more complicated than the conventional setup, and much more expensive.

The actuator alone would cost more than all of the conventional brake parts on the trailer. Every other part would be at least as expensive (and in the case of hydraulic lines instead of wires, much more expensive) than the corresponding conventional part. This is in part just a matter of how common the parts are.

Yes, an electric-over-hydraulic system running disk brakes is very much like what we have in the tow vehicle. On the other hand, many motor vehicles still have drum brakes (in the rear only), and they don't have a lot of problems - I think fewer than trailers. There could be many causes, but they might include the fact that trailers are only infrequently used (so stuff rusts) and that trailer parts are generally cheap junk compared to what the market demands for cars and trucks.

Originally Posted by jennykatz

I wonder if ETI would do this system for me ?

I can't speak for Escape Trailer Industries, but I would be surprised if they would agree to do it. It would mean ordering different brakes from Dexter, installing hydraulic lines instead of wiring from the wheels to the tongue, supplying and installing an electric-over-hydraulic actuator, and finally selling a system which which they are not familiar. The Lil Snoozy's surge/disk system is simpler (nothing electrical), and the trailer and chassis manufacturers are familiar with it.

On the other hand, as long as you don't get the underside covered in foam insulation, the whole system could be installed later with no problems - it would just mean throwing away (or giving to someone else) the hub/drums and brake assemblies. I suggest trying the stock system, and upgrading later if desired. You'll need the same controller in the tug either way.

I'm sorry that this all sounds quite negative, but the reality is not as nice as the ideal sounds. I do agree that there are better braking systems, and that it is worth considering them.


Example actuator: Dexter DX Series
Other examples and pricing: Electric-Hydraulic Brake Actuators at eTrailer

[jennykatz]

The reason I posted this was hearing of all the problems with these elec brakes .My friend uses the Titan EHB for his tandem axcel boat trailer . I just spoke with him and he said he does not have the controller in his Lincoln navigator . The brakes work Great with a 8000lb boat and trailer . When looking this up I see it works in unison with a brake contoller? So either he is unaware of a controller in the Lincoln ( it has a towing option though) which I doubt or it can work without one .
I guess I like the way disc brakes work . BTW my surge brakes work great on a 2500lb Snoozy trailer .

[cpaharley2008]

I do not have a separate brake controller box in my truck, the brake controller is integral and built in by the factory. I just hook up and go, perhaps your friend is using one without knowing it in his Navigator ....?

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by jennykatz

The reason I posted this was hearing of all the problems with these elec brakes .My friend uses the Titan EHB for his tandem axcel boat trailer . I just spoke with him and he said he does not have the controller in his Lincoln navigator . The brakes work Great with a 8000lb boat and trailer . When looking this up I see it works in unison with a brake contoller? So either he is unaware of a controller in the Lincoln ( it has a towing option though) which I doubt or it can work without one .
I guess I like the way disc brakes work . BTW my surge brakes work great on a 2500lb Snoozy trailer .

Jenny, if his boat trailer has electric brakes, the only way they work is to be actuated by a brake controller in the tow vehicle. He's either towing without trailer brakes, or there is an integrated brake controller in the Lincoln. I have an integrated brake controller in my F150 by the way, and its the best brake controller I've ever used.

[jamman]

Most boat trailers use surge brakes - no controller needed. Electric brakes don't like to be submerged.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by jamman

Most boat trailers use surge brakes - no controller needed. Electric brakes don't like to be submerged.

Ah, that would explain it. Probably surge brakes.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

Ah, that would explain it. Probably surge brakes.

That is the normal explanation for no controller, but I don't think that's the case here - Jenny is familiar with the surge-activated setup on her Lil Snoozy, and specifically mentioned the Titan EHB on her friend's trailer. Titan does make surge actuators, but that wouldn't be an EHB.

Ideally a Navigator would have the same factory controller as an F-150 (as Robert has shown), because they share the same platform; however, I don't think the Lincoln Navigator (or Ford Expedition) has kept up with changes to the F-150, or has all the same equipment. The Heavy-Duty Trailer Tow Package listed on the options page includes only "brake module wiring", which implies no integrated controller. Integrated controllers are quite new to light-duty pickups (and SUVs).

A remote-control controller can be mounted on the trailer, but I hope the owner would know about that.

I have no idea how a Titan EHB could run a boat trailer's brakes acceptably without a controller. A really weak brake system could be full-powered whenever the brake lights go on without locking up, but it wouldn't brake sufficiently to be acceptable when it is really needed.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by jamman

Most boat trailers use surge brakes - no controller needed. Electric brakes don't like to be submerged.

I think it's mostly wiring connections don't like to be submerged, and everything doesn't like to be submerged in salt water! I agree, this is the big reason for the popularity of surge brakes on boats. It may be a reason for disk brakes for boats, too, as they don't hold water like drums.

There are corrosion-resistant electric brakes specifically for boat trailers.

This isn't really about brake lock-up, but I've seen the electric-over-hydraulic disk brake setup Jenny describes on a military boat trailer. The actuator was mounted on a post on the tongue to keep it up out of the water.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Titan does make surge actuators, but that wouldn't be an EHB.

Right you are. Missed the mention of the Titan EHB. Their documentation specifically states that a brake controller in the tow vehicle is required to use the Titan EHB.

[jennykatz]

I talked again to my friend last night at dinner He affirmed that his Titan E/H brakes did not have a controller in the Lincoln Navigator ?He might have a different model then the EHB . I think the controller is in the Titan E/H brakes instead of the truck or car ? The elec over Hydraulic brakes are used on boat trailers to control braking instead of the surge braking .I believe they are mandatory for boats over 3000lb in Canada .
We belong to another forum for boats C-Brats.com and a lot of the owners have these elec./over hydraulic brakes for the 25and 26 ft c-dory boats . I do believe that elec brakes or E/H brakes are the way to go if one has a trailer over 3000lb and travels in the mountains .Surge brakes can be scary sometimes going down slick boat ramps because surge brakes have no braking in reverse . That is why most trailer mfg will go to E/H brakes for there bigger boats . I wasn't trying to stir up problems just trying to figure out if other brakes would work on our fiberglass trailers . From a braking standpoint Disc brakes are the best . Jim (jennykatz is my daughters name )

[Dave Walter]

This thread may be giving the impression to some readers that there is some systematic problem with the brakes on Escape trailers. Although there may be a few people who have had problems with improperly adjusted or even malfunctioning brakes on their Escapes, I would hazard a guess that the brakes on the majority of trailers are functioning perfectly fine. Of course, in order to keep them operating properly you need to carry out periodic maintenance on your trailer brakes just as you should on your tow vehicle.

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by ice-breaker

This thread may be giving the impression to some readers that there is some systematic problem with the brakes on Escape trailers. Although there may be a few people who have had problems with improperly adjusted or even malfunctioning brakes on their Escapes, I would hazard a guess that the brakes on the majority of trailers are functioning perfectly fine. Of course, in order to keep them operating properly you need to carry out periodic maintenance on your trailer brakes just as you should on your tow vehicle.

I don't get that at all. What I do notice is some lack of awareness of how these brakes work and the absolute necessity of staying on top of them. That means adjusting them very soon after picking up a new trailer- and if you really want to do it right then read up about "burnishing the shoes". After that every 3,000 miles. Also, do not wait 2 years to look at your bearings if you put a lot of miles on as a rear brake seal might actually leak like ours and contaminate a brake lining with grease.

Was going to take mine in to a shop today, however after doing the bearing service AND adjusting the brakes, they don't lock up anymore. The bearing service of course had nothing to do with it, however I still have to get a new brake lining. So I admit that it was my fault for not adjusting after our last 3400 mile trip.

[gbaglo]

Can you find a travel trailer manufacturer who uses this better braking system?

[jennykatz]

I'm new to RVing but to my understanding most of fiberglass and sticky built trailers are using the elec brake systems . I've been boating for over 50 years of trailering boats and the only problems I had were with drum brakes with salt water immersion . I now use surge disc brakes on my tandem axcel boat trailer . The trailer is an 09 so we just redid the master cylinder and all new brake pads and calipers . When we lived out in Seattle WA . we had brakes that lasted many years without touching them in fresh water lakes . I think the best system would be elec /Hydraulic disc brakes . Disc brakes do not need adjusting .You still need to do bearings every two years or so .
This basically was to let people know that there are other braking systems out there . I in no way am saying the brakes on ETI trailers are bad or insufficient i'm just pointing out how other trailers work . I'm glad everything worked out for the escape owner whose brakes locked up . Jim (jennykatz is my daughter )

We have a twin bed model 2013 Lil Snoozy and Looking at the 5.0TA which we love

[jamman]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

Can you find a travel trailer manufacturer who uses this better braking system?

http://www.airstream.com/wp-content/...e6e67f5109.pdf

See page 13: http://www.drvsuites.com/brochures/A...ctBrochure.pdf

optional: Options - Redwood RV :: Full-Time Residential Fifth Wheels

optional: Standards & Options - CrossRoads RV

[gbaglo]

That Airstream ad is an oldie, but a goodie.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by ice-breaker

This thread may be giving the impression to some readers that there is some systematic problem with the brakes on Escape trailers. Although there may be a few people who have had problems with improperly adjusted or even malfunctioning brakes on their Escapes, I would hazard a guess that the brakes on the majority of trailers are functioning perfectly fine. Of course, in order to keep them operating properly you need to carry out periodic maintenance on your trailer brakes just as you should on your tow vehicle.

I agree, except that I think poorly working brakes are probably pretty common. Motor vehicle brakes don't require much maintenance, and if they don't work right the driver can feel the difference; neither is particularly true of trailer brakes (Escape or otherwise).

[tractors1]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I agree, except that I think poorly working brakes are probably pretty common. Motor vehicle brakes don't require much maintenance, and if they don't work right the driver can feel the difference; neither is particularly true of trailer brakes (Escape or otherwise).

Since I live on a dead-end gravel road I get to check trailer brakes for equal lockup pretty easy!

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by jamman

http://www.airstream.com/wp-content/...e6e67f5109.pdf

Fascinating... because it was done so long ago, and because of the vacuum connection (don't try this now). An electric actuator probably wasn't practical at the time.

Originally Posted by jamman

See page 13: http://www.drvsuites.com/brochures/A...ctBrochure.pdf
optional: Options - Redwood RV :: Full-Time Residential Fifth Wheels
optional: Standards & Options - CrossRoads RV

Although these are not detailed, I'm sure these are all electric-over-hydraulic systems using a controller in the tug. Compared to the cost of these RVs, the brake system cost isn't bad.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by jennykatz

I talked again to my friend last night at dinner He affirmed that his Titan E/H brakes did not have a controller in the Lincoln Navigator ?He might have a different model then the EHB . I think the controller is in the Titan E/H brakes instead of the truck or car ?

That would require the actuator (reportedly an EHB in this case) to measure deceleration and determine the appropriate amount of trailer braking. That can be done, and it is done by trailer-mounted controllers such as the Prodigy RF; however, Titan does not mention this for the EHB and instead says that it works with the controller in the tow vehicle. Trailer-mounted controllers typically use a radio-linked control and display unit located so that it is accessible to the driver.

Here's the answer:
The BrakeRite II catalog description says:

The BrakeRite II is used with either the BrakeRite II SD or BrakeRite II RF kits to match your specific trailering application.

Sure enough, the catalog description for the BrakeRite II - RF says:

The BrakeRite II - RF applies the outstanding BrakeRite EHB performance with radio frequency control to provide quality braking for trailers to be towed by vehicles without the standard, hard wired in-cab brake controllers.

This system incorporates the latest in deceleration sensing by utilizing an accelerometer chip in the hybrid circuitry to apply the trailer brakes in proportion to the tow vehicle braking. The in-cab controller manual override is transmitted by RF (radio frequency) to the control module and is powered by the in-cab power outlet (cigarette lighter).

This model is a combination of

• an electrohydraulic actuator (the EHB) and
• a proportional brake controller with radio-linked control and display module, like the Tekonsha Prodigy RF

So I assume that Jim (not Jenny) is right and it is not a BrakeRite EHB but instead a BrakeRite II RF, ... so it does have a controller - it's just mounted on the trailer (plus a small unit carried in the cab, but not wired in or permanently mounted).

Originally Posted by jennykatz

The elec over Hydraulic brakes are used on boat trailers to control braking instead of the surge braking .

The electric actuator takes the place of the surge coupler as the source of hydraulic pressure. In the surge case, the amount of force by the ball pushing back on the coupler determines the amount of braking effort; in the electric-over-hydraulic case, this information comes from the controller (as the voltage supplied to the trailer by the controller), whether that controller is mounted on the dash or (rarely) on the trailer.

Originally Posted by jennykatz

I believe they are mandatory for boats over 3000lb in Canada .
We belong to another forum for boats C-Brats.com and a lot of the owners have these elec./over hydraulic brakes for the 25and 26 ft c-dory boats .

In most (perhaps all) areas there are no separate rules for boat trailers versus other trailers.
Rules for brake requirements vary by province in Canada, just as they vary by state in the U.S.; yes, brakes are typically required above some defined trailer weight, and 25-foot boats are heavy enough to require brakes in most places.
Whether the fiberglass on top is a boat hull or a box to camp in, two-ton trailers have the same braking requirements on the road, and so the same braking systems work for both.

Originally Posted by jennykatz

I wasn't trying to stir up problems just trying to figure out if other brakes would work on our fiberglass trailers .

I don't see any problem at all
Electric-over-hydraulic would certainly work for an Escape. The main reason to use this technology would likely be that it allows the use of disk brakes, while maintaining the control features of an electric system (instead of a surge setup). A trailer-mounted controller works for an Escape, too - the BrakeRite II RF would suit a Titan electric-over-hydraulic system, while a Prodigy RF suits a conventional electric drum brake system. I think at least one Escape owner uses a Prodigy RF.

Would an electric-over-hydraulic disk system avoid the lockup problems some people have seen? Perhaps yes, but maybe not (depending on the cause), and it is definitely not a solution to choose lightly, due to the cost and complexity.