broken frame and sorta peeved!

[gbaglo]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Heard of a 19 owner in Texas who had the A-frame separate under tow and only the chains kept it attached.

I don't get it. Are the chains not attached to the frame? How could the frame separate and the chains not also separate?

[Rossue]

Was in Tucson last year when a 21 owner from Texas told me of his friend with a 19 that had a separation and the chains kept it attached.

This reminds me of floor joists and the fact that you cannot drill through them for electrical or plumbing unless they are engineered like TJI's.

[gbaglo]

You mean the hitch came off the ball and the chains kept the trailer attached?
Where was the separation if that's not the case?

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Nonetheless going to take a close look at the frame. If there happened to be a problem lucky to know a very skilled welder that could take care of it. Makes his own frames for his highly customized vehicles.

Couldn't hurt Dave. I'd say anyone with the 19 and a 3 inch frame should inspect it behind the repair area, paying particular attention to the through bolts.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

I was thinking that it was the storage box that prevented a disaster. The sagging frame allowed the front wall of the trailer to move forward and press on the box and perhaps transferred some of the force to the propane tanks. I can't see how the WDH contributed to the frame not sagging more than it did.

Brian analysis needed.

Ron

I think this Ron analysis is at least an excellent start.
I do wonder what is keeping everything together in tension at or below floor level, but the body is attached to the frame at points further back, and must be attached by something further forward. Tension at the bottom and compression (of body against storage box etc higher up) provides the required beam strength.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

This reminds me of floor joists and the fact that you cannot drill through them for electrical or plumbing unless they are engineered like TJI's.

I agree - a big hole can be drilled horizontally through the side walls of the frame tubes, at mid-height, without compromising the strength of the frame.

The C-channel frames of trucks can be drilled so full of mounting holes in the vertical web that they look like Swiss cheese, but the top and bottom flanges are not touched. I added shocks on my current trailer, using the standard installation method which includes drilling a 1/2" diameter hole right through the 2"x4" box frame (horizontally) and sticking a bolt through it... no problem.

A vertical hole compromises the top and bottom faces of the rectangular tube, which are much more highly stressed than the middle of the sides when the tube is acting as a horizontal beam. A weld which compromises the heat treatment of the steel alloy can be as bad a hole.

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

Yes, they're now 4" and don't have the vertical hole with a bolt to attach the body. The bolt goes through a welded on bracket. Mine's a 2014 and it has the 4" frame.

Ron

Seams strange why the 1st and 2nd gen. 5.0 T/A 's use 3"x2"x 1/8" Tube Steel, and uses vertical hole with a bolt to attach the body. What size tube steel do the 1st and 2nd gen 21's use ? and are they through bolted ?

[Tin]

Originally Posted by Tin

Seams strange why the 1st and 2nd gen. 5.0 T/A 's use 3"x2"x 1/8" Tube Steel, and uses vertical hole with a bolt to attach the body. What size tube steel do the 1st and 2nd gen 21's use ? and are they through bolted ?

Clarification, there are four 5/16 bolts through bolted at the rear frame section only where the floor is raised the rest of the trailer is bolted through angle iron so through bolting does not appear to be an issue, I apologize.

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

For the record, all, it's spelled Reace.

Well, ya, but that's the Canadian metric spelling, using the decabet instead of the U.S. standard alphabet (reference: Saturday Night Live skit ).

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Devil Dog

The old what if ? and what insurance company if any would cover a accident related to a frame failure causing it ?

An insurance company is obligated to cover it. If they have consider it a manufacturing issue they would then have to go after the manufacturer for the money.

Originally Posted by flatpick

actually I am quite pleased that Rease has responded so quickly! we'll get 'er figured out!

steve

Steve, just want to say I admire your attitude through this ordeal. The best way to a successful remedy is done with a cool head and good attitude.

[Dave Walter]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I agree - a big hole can be drilled horizontally through the side walls of the frame tubes, at mid-height, without compromising the strength of the frame.

The C-channel frames of trucks can be drilled so full of mounting holes in the vertical web that they look like Swiss cheese, but the top and bottom flanges are not touched. I added shocks on my current trailer, using the standard installation method which includes drilling a 1/2" diameter hole right through the 2"x4" box frame (horizontally) and sticking a bolt through it... no problem.

A vertical hole compromises the top and bottom faces of the rectangular tube, which are much more highly stressed than the middle of the sides when the tube is acting as a horizontal beam. A weld which compromises the heat treatment of the steel alloy can be as bad a hole.

Actually, a hole through the centre of a beam will compromise the strength of that beam. The shear strength of the beam relies on the entire cross-sectional area of the beam to resist shear forces, if you cut a hole through the beam, you reduce the area available to resist shear, and thus decrease the shear resistance. However, it is often the bending moment resistance that governs the design of a beam, rather than the shear resistance. The bending moment resistance of a beam is mostly developed in the material that is present at the top and bottom sides of a beam, thus, cutting a hole in the centre of the beam will reduce the moment resistance of that beam by a relatively "small" amount. Because the reduction in moment resistance due to cutting a hole through the side of a beam is relatively small compared to the moment resistance before the hole was cut, this is often considered to be an acceptable way to run wires or pipes through a beam (i.e. joists).

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by Dave Walter

......Because the reduction in moment resistance due to cutting a hole through the side of a beam is relatively small compared to the moment resistance before the hole was cut, this is often considered to be an acceptable way to run wires or pipes through a beam (i.e. joists).

Since at least 1993 (when i built a previous home) you could not drill through dimensional lumber to run plumbing/electrical or anything else in California. In my current home I learned the lesson of squeaking floor joists and used engineered lumber which does allow drilling through horizontally.

[frank_a]

Maybe this is a suggestion for ETI.

When I have a hole going through a frame, I size it so a piece of heavy wall tubing can be welded in both sides. For instance the hot rod frame I built has two holes each side (in the back) through the top of the 2 X 3 X 3/16 wall frame that hold 5/8 inch bolts that secure the gas tank platform. I used 5/8 i.d. heavy wall tubing for those holes and welded them top and bottom. In eleven years on the road, nary a problem.

I would never put a bolt through a frame without welding a tube in. It's just good welding practice. And I bet ETI has great welding equipment, and could easily do that. It's what I would call "best practice."

If you're just going to weld plate over the crack, the crack should be "v'ed" out and welded first, then the plate applied. If done right that can work too, but you have to be patient so the heat you're applying does not warp the tubing.

I couldn't imagine fixing this without removing the body. It is a mystery to me.

Best of luck to you!

Frank

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

Steve, just want to say I admire your attitude through this ordeal. The best way to a successful remedy is done with a cool head and good attitude.

I wholeheartedly agree! Going postal or ballistic solves nothing.

[AllanEdie]

I very much sympathize with the OP on this one, and as others do, admire his attitude under frustrating and stressful circumstances.

Re. the break, as mentioned earlier, both the through bolt and the weld are suspect as the cause of the cracking. However, the pictures posted earlier in this particular case look more suggestive to me of cracking originating at the weld bead than having anything to do with the through bolt. The weld likely weakened and made the tube near the bead more brittle, which set off the cracking.

In any case, I suggest being careful about choosing a repair shop. As pointed out earlier, welding T1 steel is tricky. Just adding a thicker piece of steel will not solve the problem if the welding just fixes one failure while setting up a similar one for the future. Keep in mind that it is not the weld itself that failed, it is almost certainly the T1 steel adjacent to it that was weakened and made brittle by the heat of the weld.

At a minimum, the repair shop must be informed that the frame is T1. I imagine that Reace will be on top of this, but best keep it in mind.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Heard of a 19 owner in Texas who had the A-frame separate under tow and only the chains kept it attached.

Originally Posted by gbaglo

I don't get it. Are the chains not attached to the frame? How could the frame separate and the chains not also separate?

Originally Posted by gbaglo

You mean the hitch came off the ball and the chains kept the trailer attached?
Where was the separation if that's not the case?

Maybe the A-frame coupler somehow separated from the frame right near the front which would have kept the the safety chains intact. Just a guess.

[gbaglo]

Well, I guess we'll have to ask the friend of the brother-in-law of the neighbour of a guy I met at a bar in Tuscon, or was it Dallas?

[cpaharley2008]

I maybe wrong but I recall seeing pictures where the frame and body connection point is via metal tabs welded to the frame sides and the bolts penetrating the shell that way vs thru the frame...

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

I maybe wrong but I recall seeing pictures where the frame and body connection point is via metal tabs welded to the frame sides and the bolts penetrating the shell that way vs thru the frame...

Jim: That may be the case now with the 4" frame, but the early 3" frames have the body bolts completely through the frame as can be seen in the pictures in post #1 of this thread. This is the technique at the front of the trailer. I cannot speak for further down the frame towards the rear if the technique changes.

Myron's post with pictures illustrates the tabs you are referring to, but he has the 4" frame. The frame recall work on the early 19's with the 3" frame did involve adding one tab for body mounting on each side (see pic). One thing I also noticed which appears to coincide with the change to the 4" frame is that ETI stopped welding on the stabilizers and they are now bolted.

www.escapeforum.org/forums/f20/3-frame-recall-on-15-17-and-19-escape-trailers-6501-4.html#post111811

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Tin

Seams strange why the 1st and 2nd gen. 5.0 T/A 's use 3"x2"x 1/8" Tube Steel, and uses vertical hole with a bolt to attach the body. What size tube steel do the 1st and 2nd gen 21's use ? and are they through bolted ?

That size of tubing (3" tall) was used for the entire length of the frame on models up to 19' and the original 5.0, but in the 21' and 5.0TA that size has always been used only for the stepped-up section at the back of the trailer, which carries much less load than the forward part of the frame.