building shade sail - type pole? - 55' OK? - help me not screw up

[War Eagle]

Fred, I gather that you are sold on using shade sails for your project, and that's great if that's what you want, but if your fundamental intent is to protect your Escape from the elements, don't overlook a custom-made pre-fab metal structure (example link below). They are generally cost-effective and are very popular here in the Southeast anyway:
Structure Catalog - R&B Metal Structures
Since they sit atop the ground and are then anchored down, they are considered a temporary structure and don't even require a building permit in many (most?) places around here, and they can go right up against the property line. They can be custom-sized, come in pieces and are assembled on site, so no problem locating them in otherwise hard to get to areas. Usually lots of roofing colors to choose from. The aesthetics may not be to your liking, but it would certainly meet your primary interest in protecting your Escape. Pre-engineered and much less complicated. Just something to consider, if you haven't already....

[War Eagle]

One more thing, for what it's worth. In my experience using suspended mesh cloth for shade (in my case, to provide shade for livestock on open pasture), unless there is a pretty good pitch for run-off, the surface tension of water can allow rain to pool for awhile into the lowest spot, weight it down and cause it to sag, then suddenly dump through the mesh all at once all in that one location. So if you end up with any relatively flat mesh areas, be prepared for sagging under the weight of accumulating rain and then for all of that accumulated rain water to be dumped in that one location. Just my experience with mesh shade cloth....

[StarvingHyena]

Hi John,
Its pretty hard to armchair engineer your project without looking at your site and knowing about local conditions. One factor is the composition of your soil which will affect your pole footing size and depth .... sand, gravel, clay, organic mix?

Here's an idea .... install grommets in both the house side and the 52' side, connect sail (key word) shade grommets and wire with metal rings. Have removable intermediate poles along 52' side and house side. To exit with trailer, slide sail shade along both the 52' and house side towards the garage - gathering the sail behind trailer along garage. Remove intermediate poles and exit your trailer. Leave sail gathered and tied like a reefed square sail on a clipper ship yardarm in your absence. Intermediate poles set inside short larger diameter pipe set in concrete allowing poles to be removed. At the top of these poles, support wire with "L" shaped brackets. To slide sail grommet rings past .. lift wire off "L" shaped bracket and push sail past. Same on house side. Just and idea on how to deal with your 52' span.

I like War Eagles idea of a metal building covering best. Wish I could get those prices up here.

Here is a little story on why I'm so concerned with you dealing with a 52' unsupported span: I have a shop that has a poly tarp roof covering over standard rafters. UV rots it out about every three years and I need to add another tarp layer. So one summer day I'm up on my roof adding yet another tarp covering ..... its a big tarp - 40' X 60'. I fasten it down only on the perimeter and had gotten one long side fasten in place. The rest of the tarp was still partially folded from shipping and wadded up like a sheet of paper. Well .... a little wind came up and my new tarp started blowing around .... and to keep from loosing control of the situation, I hopped on top of the tarp spread eagle fashion. The wind of course instantly increased a little and I found myself flying on top of the wadded up tarp about 10' above my roof.... nothing solid to push against or stand on .... it was like flying a pillow. The wind was blowing at less than 5 mph and still it lifted me. I couldn't believe it! If I got knocked off one side of my roof, it meant a drop of only about 7' (survivable without injury - probably) but the other side involved a 25' drop down onto some 3' diameter beach logs - not good. All ended well as after about 15 minutes flying time, the wind died and I was able to get my tarp fastened down and scrambled off the roof. Heart rate eventually went returned to normal.

Its pretty amazing what forces even a slight wind can generate. Your sail area is pretty big even though being only 10' wide. With one side fastened to your house and the other long side being pretty loose - should the wind (even 5 mph) get under your sail, you will have a pretty good air foil ... picture wing. The forces generated can be significant.

I don't know your area or site but my free , (we all know what that is worth) recommendation is to get some design help.

Really, I'm trying to help,

Tom

[cpaharley2008]

I believe this material allows both wind and rain to go through it, not sun. It is used in agriculture settings.

[Iowa Dave]

Originally Posted by StarvingHyena;183538

I like War Eagles idea of a metal building covering best.

Its pretty amazing what forces even a slight wind can generate. Your sail area is pretty big even though being only 10' wide. With one side fastened to your house and the other long side being pretty loose - should the wind (even 5 mph) get under your sail, you will have a pretty good air foil ... picture wing. The forces generated can be significant.

I don't know your area or site but my[U

free[/U] , (we all know what that is worth) recommendation is to get some design help.

Really, I'm trying to help,

Tom

In municipal parks employment the greenhouse employees, the tennis court crew, the ice skating rink prep crew and the golf guys who installed turf covers all took involuntary flying lessons at one time or another. That wind can be a rascal. Never had a serious injury, just lucky.
Dave

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by StarvingHyena

... I like War Eagles idea of a metal building covering best. Wish I could get those prices up here. ...

We live about 3 hours from where that particular brand is fabricated and only 5 miles from a local distributor. We're thinking about getting what they call their A-Frame design (higher wind rating), 18' x 26' with 9' high sides, open sides and ends. The quote they gave us is right at $1,500 for everything - "turn key" so to speak. We can enclose the sides and add overhead doors on both ends later, if we choose. So far, we're thinking it would be a worthy investment for protecting our new Escape with enough room for maybe a few other "grown-up toys" under there.

[Rossue]

Have been reading all this with keen interest as I too would like to avoid the hassle of a cover. The metal sheds are cost effective, however Susan says no way due to aesthetics. Like the sail plan and hope John can work this out and share the details.

[Losangeles]

Unfortunately we dont have the space (clearances) for a prefab metal shed / roof / what ever.

no way, no how.

sadly

[StarvingHyena]

I'm about of gigs here. Maybe multiple overlapping sails would be able to vent / spill the wind better than one single ..... ??

Tom

[Losangeles]

Thanks everyone for all the many good ideas.



I really like the idea of having a guy wire coming up to the pole, before the wire runs the long trip to the carport. Makes perfect sense.

and

The shade sail manufacturer specifically suggested I get them to put in grommets every 2 feet, and i run 3/16" stainless steel in and out of the grommets to thread along the one side side, and that will hold the shade sail in place, and be strong.

and

as I mentioned on page 1 - the area is very sheltered by our house and the neighbors house, so luckily wind is not a huge factor at all. Trust me on this.

plus

I'm planning on having the secured - thru- the 3/16" cable - side about 2 feet higher than the "connected to the house rafters" side, and so that is a good slope to allow water to run off, although with the mesh some water also goes right thru it. I dont think the water will pool in it. I'll look for that, tho.



john

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by Losangeles

I'm planning on having the secured - thru- the 3/16" cable - side about 2 feet higher than the "connected to the house rafters" side, and so that is a good slope to allow water to run off, although with the mesh some water also goes right thru it. I dont think the water will pool in it. I'll look for that, tho.

john

This is going to be an interesting project. Can't wait to see how it all goes together. When are you thinking of starting it?

Ron

[Losangeles]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

This is going to be an interesting project. Can't wait to see how it all goes together. When are you thinking of starting it?

Ron

If only I could snap my fingers and have my income taxes finished, plus a bunch of other work (income) projects....

[garysd]

John,

Any progress on your trailer shelter? Now that we have ours at home I need to come up with something that will be similar to what you're doing, though we have big trees for poles and no space constraints like you have. Just long cables to support the fabric.

Gary

[Losangeles]

Originally Posted by garysd

John,

Any progress on your trailer shelter? Now that we have ours at home I need to come up with something that will be similar to what you're doing, though we have big trees for poles and no space constraints like you have. Just long cables to support the fabric.

Gary

Attachment 23506

Hey Gary and Linda!

Congrats on arriving home!

How was pickup?

How was orientation?

How was it towing a travel trailer for the first time!

:-)

And

Taxes and work have kept me busy.

Next up is some shade.

Going to do a mock up of the wire to get a better sense of height etc. Needed.

Soon ish.

:-)

[garysd]

Originally Posted by Losangeles

Hey Gary and Linda!
Congrats on arriving home!
How was pickup?
How was orientation?
How was it towing a travel trailer for the first time! :-)
And
Taxes and work have kept me busy.
Next up is some shade.
Going to do a mock up of the wire to get a better sense of height etc. Needed.
Soon ish.
:-)

John,

Pickup went well. We had the 8am orientation time slot that went great! We came away with enough knowledge to operate everything, or to use the manuals to figure out what we needed to do. ETI was a bit behind getting the E2 Hitch installed for some reason but we made it to the Lynden KOA in plenty of time to get settled.

We sure had fun bringing our trailer home! We moved everyday, taking 5 days to work our way back to Portland. The Pathfinder towed beautifully. The E2 Hitch was great--thanks for the recommendation! The Pathfinder and trailer never felt uncomfortable driving in all sorts of road and stormy conditions. The gauntlet of traffic circles on Hwy. 539 during morning rush hour, a ferry crossing, very strong winds coming at us from all directions, torrential rains, and the quick stops we had to make several times on Highway 101, down along the coast, as we would come around a corner and find a tree in the road. I also learned how to--well, kinda --back up.

Yeah, taxes and earning the money to pay them can be time consuming! I have taxes out of the way and now I'm putting in the hours to get my work caught up before the Spring NOG on April 27-30.

I'll be following your shade sail project. That will start sometime in May.

Gary

[Losangeles]

Hi all

Update - after doing some mock ups with string..... I realized that I can forgo the pole completely.

Instead I'll attach the 3/16" stainless cable to the (very very strong, built into the house) carport on one end, and the garage on the other end.

No problems. Much easier.

I am currently looking for a pair of big beefy D-Ring anchorage mounts, to bolt to these structures. (one on either end)

I can't find them.

anyone have any ideas / web links?

Here is a "attach to concrete" version.... to show what I mean

Except i want to bolt to wood. (and a bit cheaper than this would be ok with me too)

https://ppesafetysolutions.com/PROTE...el-AJ720A.html

thanks!

John

Originally Posted by Losangeles

Hi all

There are so many wise people here on the escape Forum I thought I’d post a sketch of my design for a custom made shade cloth, and see what suggestions people had.

Please check out the (horrible) drawing I made that shows the rough layout and design of what I have in mind. Please pardon my lousy drawing skills.

My intent is to keep UV off our Escape, and yet we dont want the hassle of a cover on the Escape.

I plan on cutting the concrete (how big of a hole should I dig?) to sink a tall metal post by the corner of the garage. (see drawing)

This will be where the 3/16th stainless cable attaches at the east end of our driveway.
I plan on attaching the 3/16th stainless cable (55’ long) about 13’ or so above the ground, to make sure that even with a bit of droop, the shade cloth*doesn’t droop down and hit the Escape roof or HVAC.

The west end of the 55 foot long 3/16th stainless cable will attach to the peak of our carport. Height of the peak of the (very strong,*structural wood, built into the house) carport is maybe 16’ up?

I’ll attach at the peak of the carport to get the necessary height to ensure that the shade cloth doesn’t droop down to hit the top of the Escape.

I can’t put poles along the side of the escape, between the Escape and the non structural wall along the property line…. because there isn’t space.

I can’t use / tie into the wall along the property line at all, as it is weak and can’t be strengthened at a reasonable cost. (don’t ask)

What I think we’ll use is this - COMMERCIAL 95 - the best mesh they sell. 15 colors…. including a color that we love (tan)

Commercial 95 Shade Sails in Standard Sizes

With grommets down 2 sides, and with all sides re-inforced the cost would be about $750. Blocks about 95% of UV.

The 10’ x 30’ shade sail would be an actual rectangle, with straight edges. I am advised by the shade sail makers that I can simply thread the 3/16ths stainless cable thru the grommets down the side of the shade sail, and it’ll be fine. I’d use something else (what to use?) to attach the short gap between house rafter area to shade sail (see drawing)

Due to the situation (a relatively flat installation of the fabric) Sunbrella is not suitable, as water could pool in it in the rain. The mesh allows water to drain thru it.

The alternative shade sail option would be this ready made one, in a color we do not like, but it is much cheaper.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mighty-Pr...Green/50547619

I’d likely buy the steel pipe (or whatever is best) from Metal Supermarket in Anaheim
https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/anaheim/

I read somewhere that 4″ schedule 40 steel pipe (galvanized) would be a good choice, but I do want to get a very strong pipe for the east support. (suggestions?)

If the post is 14’ above the ground, and at the top I have a 3/16th stainless cable attached, that then runs 55’ to the peak of the carport, and has turnbuckles on either end to keep the cable under *some* tension…. and there is a 10’ x 30’ shade sail on that cable… I can understand that there would be considerable force on the pipe…..

How many feet into the ground do I need to sink the pipe? I’d bury the pipe in concrete…. how big (width x width x depth) of a hole am I going to need to dig? Luckily I’m 99.9% positive that there are absolutely no water lines, no gas lines, no wires of any sort where I want to dig and sink the pipe.

So the questions are:

What size and kind of pole do I get?

Is 4″ schedule 40 steel pipe (galvanized) ideal?

How much of the pole (# feet) needs to be underground?

Do i need to attach some sort of metal ‘fins’ to the pole to make it stronger / more secure in the concrete? Not sure what they are called, but a smart friend mentioned these fins that attach to the pole, before the concrete gets poured around it.

Given that I can’t put poles along the side of the escape, between the Escape and the non structural wall along the property line…. am I going to be ok using 55’ of 3/16th stainless cable - attached at both ends, but with no support in the middle?

How much tension do (or i do NOT) want on the cable?

Anything else to consider?

Many thanks!

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Losangeles

I am currently looking for a pair of big beefy D-Ring anchorage mounts, to bolt to these structures. (one on either end)

I can't find them.

anyone have any ideas / web links?

Maybe?
D-Rings & D-Ring Tie Downs: Trailer Tie Down Anchors & Weld On D-Rings

[gocamp]

LA, I picked up some of those d ring anchor points in your link at harbor freight. Brink and mortar store that is. I think they were in the towing area or the locks area. They were a pretty beefy size, 4 mounting holes just like your link.

[Losangeles]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

Maybe?
D-Rings & D-Ring Tie Downs: Trailer Tie Down Anchors & Weld On D-Rings

Thanks rubicon - cool bunch of stuff.

[Losangeles]

Originally Posted by gocamp

LA, I picked up some of those d ring anchor points in your link at harbor freight. Brink and mortar store that is. I think they were in the towing area or the locks area. They were a pretty beefy size, 4 mounting holes just like your link.

aha! Harbor Freight - why didn't I think of that? There is one nearby. Cool.

gocamp do you happen to remember if they were "flush mount" so I'd have to remove wood to get them installed?

or a flat base?

and was it like this? or bigger? I'd really like a 4 hole version, to spread out the load...

https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-...hor-60323.html


thanks.

john