building shade sail - type pole? - 55' OK? - help me not screw up - Escape Trailer Owners Community

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Old 02-20-2017, 01:31 AM   #1
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Question building shade sail - type pole? - 55' OK? - help me not screw up

Hi all

There are so many wise people here on the escape Forum I thought I’d post a sketch of my design for a custom made shade cloth, and see what suggestions people had.

Please check out the (horrible) drawing I made that shows the rough layout and design of what I have in mind. Please pardon my lousy drawing skills.

My intent is to keep UV off our Escape, and yet we dont want the hassle of a cover on the Escape.

I plan on cutting the concrete (how big of a hole should I dig?) to sink a tall metal post by the corner of the garage. (see drawing)

This will be where the 3/16th stainless cable attaches at the east end of our driveway.
I plan on attaching the 3/16th stainless cable (55’ long) about 13’ or so above the ground, to make sure that even with a bit of droop, the shade cloth*doesn’t droop down and hit the Escape roof or HVAC.

The west end of the 55 foot long 3/16th stainless cable will attach to the peak of our carport. Height of the peak of the (very strong,*structural wood, built into the house) carport is maybe 16’ up?

I’ll attach at the peak of the carport to get the necessary height to ensure that the shade cloth doesn’t droop down to hit the top of the Escape.

I can’t put poles along the side of the escape, between the Escape and the non structural wall along the property line…. because there isn’t space.

I can’t use / tie into the wall along the property line at all, as it is weak and can’t be strengthened at a reasonable cost. (don’t ask)

What I think we’ll use is this - COMMERCIAL 95 - the best mesh they sell. 15 colors…. including a color that we love (tan)

Commercial 95 Shade Sails in Standard Sizes

With grommets down 2 sides, and with all sides re-inforced the cost would be about $750. Blocks about 95% of UV.

The 10’ x 30’ shade sail would be an actual rectangle, with straight edges. I am advised by the shade sail makers that I can simply thread the 3/16ths stainless cable thru the grommets down the side of the shade sail, and it’ll be fine. I’d use something else (what to use?) to attach the short gap between house rafter area to shade sail (see drawing)

Due to the situation (a relatively flat installation of the fabric) Sunbrella is not suitable, as water could pool in it in the rain. The mesh allows water to drain thru it.

The alternative shade sail option would be this ready made one, in a color we do not like, but it is much cheaper.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mighty-Pr...Green/50547619

I’d likely buy the steel pipe (or whatever is best) from Metal Supermarket in Anaheim
https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/anaheim/

I read somewhere that 4″ schedule 40 steel pipe (galvanized) would be a good choice, but I do want to get a very strong pipe for the east support. (suggestions?)

If the post is 14’ above the ground, and at the top I have a 3/16th stainless cable attached, that then runs 55’ to the peak of the carport, and has turnbuckles on either end to keep the cable under *some* tension…. and there is a 10’ x 30’ shade sail on that cable… I can understand that there would be considerable force on the pipe…..

How many feet into the ground do I need to sink the pipe? I’d bury the pipe in concrete…. how big (width x width x depth) of a hole am I going to need to dig? Luckily I’m 99.9% positive that there are absolutely no water lines, no gas lines, no wires of any sort where I want to dig and sink the pipe.

So the questions are:

What size and kind of pole do I get?

Is 4″ schedule 40 steel pipe (galvanized) ideal?

How much of the pole (# feet) needs to be underground?

Do i need to attach some sort of metal ‘fins’ to the pole to make it stronger / more secure in the concrete? Not sure what they are called, but a smart friend mentioned these fins that attach to the pole, before the concrete gets poured around it.

Given that I can’t put poles along the side of the escape, between the Escape and the non structural wall along the property line…. am I going to be ok using 55’ of 3/16th stainless cable - attached at both ends, but with no support in the middle?

How much tension do (or i do NOT) want on the cable?

Anything else to consider?

Many thanks!
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File Type: jpeg Drawing shade sail feb 19 2017.jpeg (142.4 KB, 33 views)
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:40 AM   #2
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In Texas, we would have a heavy rain, the ground would be soft, then a good gust of wind would drag those poles across the trailer. I would use weak points of attachment for the sail cloth so that it would detach before the poles went with it in a strong wind.
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Old 02-20-2017, 08:59 AM   #3
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Not sure about pole type or how to install- doesn't the sail mfg. have ideas about that? To cover your .01% of doubt about any underground utilities you should call USA (underground service alert) at 8-1-1 for free utility location. If you do hit something it's on your dime.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:18 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdf-texas View Post
In Texas, we would have a heavy rain, the ground would be soft, then a good gust of wind would drag those poles across the trailer. I would use weak points of attachment for the sail cloth so that it would detach before the poles went with it in a strong wind.
To clarify - I am only planning on installing one pole.

The good news is that I am going to dig a big hole, and fill it with concrete - thus sealing in the pole.

:-)
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:24 AM   #5
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Second Ross on getting the utilities marked prior to any digging, it's free service. That's a huge span you're attempting to run so I'd be a bit nervous on this one with the storms that come through there. House and trailer will potentially sustain damage if it goes south. Have you gotten a shade sail company to estimate and give input/suggestions/estimate? They are all over the place here in AZ and not horribly expensive. The installations here are usually fairly small triangle shapes, have pretty robust poles, and span is never very long between support poles. Anyway, just throwing out initial impressions based on ur drawing, but not anything I've ever done so maybe the engineers that know more about stress/loads will weigh in here with what's needed.
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Old 02-20-2017, 10:43 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
Not sure about pole type or how to install- doesn't the sail mfg. have ideas about that? To cover your .01% of doubt about any underground utilities you should call USA (underground service alert) at 8-1-1 for free utility location. If you do hit something it's on your dime.
I'll for sure call USA (underground service alert) at 8-1-1 for free utility location.

The nice person on the phone from the sail mfg. was a bit vague about post selection..... didn't really seem to know.

john
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:08 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Losangeles View Post
To clarify - I am only planning on installing one pole.

The good news is that I am going to dig a big hole, and fill it with concrete - thus sealing in the pole.

:-)
I'm wondering why only one pole? I can understand that it may not be feasible to reinforce the wall and use it. But several poles instead of one would greatly change the dynamics of the situation.

I think that it's feasible, given a deep enough hole and enough concrete, that the pole could strong enough for the intended use.

But there are considerable forces involved. Just the weight of the cable is a factor. Then there's the tension from the turnbuckles that increases dramatically as you tension them up. Lastly, there's the shock loading the will inevitably be placed on your carport structure. The sail will kite and collapse in gusting winds. The shock loading can be formidable. The carport structure may seem strong but it's not intended to be subjected to this kind of shock loading. Unless all structural members are bolted together it will start loosening up and ultimately fail.

Sorry to be negative but I'd hate to see you spend a considerable amount of money and then have to deal with some negative outcomes.

Ron
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:13 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Ron in BC View Post
I'm wondering why only one pole? I can understand that it may not be feasible to reinforce the wall and use it. But several poles instead of one would greatly change the dynamics of the situation.

I think that it's feasible, given a deep enough hole and enough concrete, that the pole could strong enough for the intended use.

But there are considerable forces involved. Just the weight of the cable is a factor. Then there's the tension from the turnbuckles that increases dramatically as you tension them up. Lastly, there's the shock loading the will inevitably be placed on your carport structure. The sail will kite and collapse in gusting winds. The shock loading can be formidable. The carport structure may seem strong but it's not intended to be subjected to this kind of shock loading. Unless all structural members are bolted together it will start loosening up and ultimately fail.

Sorry to be negative but I'd hate to see you spend a considerable amount of money and then have to deal with some negative outcomes.

Ron
Thanks for the ideas and info Ron - much appreciated.

There can't be poles beside the Escape, due to clearance issues. There is not enough space

The carport is, in fact, bolted together. It is as sturdy as the house, so I'm not concerned at all about the carport being stressed. It is massively strong.

I wont fully tension the turnbuckles. No need to, as I'll have enough height in the pole. A moderate amount of slack will help everything

Plus the area is very sheltered by our house and the neighbors house, so luckily wind is not a huge factor at all.

John
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:14 AM   #9
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UV inhibiting wax would be a lot cheaper and not subject to damage by high winds etc.
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Old 02-20-2017, 11:40 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Losangeles View Post
I'll for sure call USA (underground service alert) at 8-1-1 for free utility location.

The nice person on the phone from the sail mfg. was a bit vague about post selection..... didn't really seem to know.

john
Just a idea . What about a electric awning ? Maybe you could attach the end of awning to wall for winds . I would worry about. The sail having slack in it . When they install them there are to be tight . You really don't want the wind moving the sail around , more stress on your attachments . They make electric (120)awnings for homes .Pat
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