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02-17-2014, 01:04 PM
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#121
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: N/A, Indiana
Trailer: Escape
Posts: 976
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As indicated on the wiring schematic in you owners manual, both the negative and the positive terminals of the inverter should be directly and independently connected with the 4 guage wire to the battery. The negative wire size is equally as important as the positive wire size and should be equal . DC (direct current) 12V flows between the positive and negative so it is important to use the same size wire to handle the load and amperage flow. So two 4 guage wires directly connecting the inverter to the battery.
__________________
"Never argue with an idiot. They only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience." George Carlin
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02-17-2014, 01:15 PM
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#122
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Central, Pennsylvania
Trailer: Escape#5 2022 E19
Posts: 26,268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyronL
Whoa, time out. Think this is clear: My inverter (+) goes direct to my battery and it's (-) goes direct to ground (which happens to also be a terminal on the converter back). The converter plays no other role in this scenario other than to act as battery recharger when needed. So Tim I see no reason why you can't employ the same with your 1500, so long as you use at least 4 awg wire like me.
CP and Brian: Hoping I got this right. My thinking was to find them wires running from the cigarette outlets to the Converter power center and divert them to my inverter somehow, so those outlets are thereby instantly "inverted" for AC appliances. I realize this is silly if those plugs only work with 12v. appliances to start with. Sooo...question is, can I find wires to an ac outlet near the bed I can bypass from going to the converter and divert to the inverter?
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Short answer, NO. Wrong wiring for the cigarette outlets. If you wish to convert a 120v outlet to inverter outlet you would have to find one that is at the end of a run, otherwise you would have to bypass it and then run additional wire, all for what?
__________________
Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
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02-17-2014, 02:14 PM
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#123
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyronL
Correct. Have not replaced any 8 AWG converter wiring. This reminds me, I should replace the short 8awg connecting both 6v batteries with 4awg, right?.
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Yes, that short jumper takes the same current as the other links in the current chain, so it needs to be large enough for safety.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyronL
Whoa, time out. Think this is clear: My inverter (+) goes direct to my battery and it's (-) goes direct to ground (which happens to also be a terminal on the converter back).
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That terminal on the back of the converter is not the battery negative terminal. If you follow the flow of current (it always goes in a complete loop, and the direction doesn't matter for this purpose): - from battery + terminal to inverter + (4 AWG cable in two sections, plus a fuse - all good)
- through the inverter (which is obviously appropriately wired internally)
- from the inverter negative terminal to the terminal on the converter back (4 AWG cable - good)
- and then from the converter terminal to the battery... through what? (just the original 8 AWG cable?)
The extra ground terminal on the inverter housing - which is properly connected to a frame "ground" - is a protective connection which should never carry any current.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyronL
The converter plays no other role in this scenario other than to act as battery recharger when needed.
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That's true of the converter itself, but the converter box also contains the DC distribution panel (fuse box), right? If so, then when the converter is not on (no shore power), all the current going to everything in the trailer (other than the inverter) goes through that panel, and thus the same cables that connect the converter to the battery.
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02-17-2014, 02:53 PM
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#124
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
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Roger that. So I need to get more 4 AWG --replace 8 AWG from neg bat to neg converter and then I'll be good, going loop-de-loop.
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
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02-17-2014, 04:24 PM
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#125
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
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--Time Out again! I thought so. I just re-checked and eyeballed my batteries and the facts are these, they are not in dispute. My negative battery cable does not go to the converter. It goes screwed into the frame. It is grounded, right there, under the curb side bench.
Therefore, if looping to the converter ain't happening, except by meandering through the frame itself (?), how does replacing the 8 and changing to 4 AWG at the negative pole do anything relevant? I cannot imagine it should actually heat up.
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
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02-17-2014, 05:49 PM
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#126
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: North Van., British Columbia
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19, sold; 2019 Escape 21, Sept. 2019
Posts: 8,744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyronL
--Time Out again! I thought so. I just re-checked and eyeballed my batteries and the facts are these, they are not in dispute. My negative battery cable does not go to the converter. It goes screwed into the frame. It is grounded, right there, under the curb side bench.
Therefore, if looping to the converter ain't happening, except by meandering through the frame itself (?), how does replacing the 8 and changing to 4 AWG at the negative pole do anything relevant? I cannot imagine it should actually heat up.
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At the risk of some electrical whiz jumping all over me I have to say that if mine comes wired like that then my very first mod that I'll do is remove the cable to the frame and replace it with one directly to the inverter negative terminal. I'll then supply a negative wire to the converter negative.
I don't like that set-up for two reasons. One, every connection, especially one subject to weather and corrosion, will start to build up resistance resulting in voltage drop or failure. Secondly it makes the whole frame "live" if a positive wire comes in contact with it.
Ron
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02-17-2014, 06:20 PM
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#127
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyronL
My negative battery cable does not go to the converter. It goes screwed into the frame. It is grounded, right there, under the curb side bench.
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Sorry, I incorrectly assumed that the converter negative cable ran to the battery directly, not via the frame. I agree with Ron's reservations about using the frame - it's a huge and obviously effective electrical conductor, and vehicle structures are used this way all the time, but the connection points can be problematic. As I now understand this, the converter negative terminal cable shown in the photos going through the floor attaches to the frame. Myron clearly showed this back at post #65, but I missed or forgot that.
Even if the frame continues to be used as part of the current path, this is still a chain in which every link needs to be up to the task. The cable from battery negative to the frame is still just 8 AWG, right? The best way to address this - and to make the inverter chassis ground more effectively separate from the negative power supply connection - is to use a separate dedicated cable from inverter negative to battery negative; however, just upsizing both the converter-to-frame and frame-to-battery cables would address the cable capacity issue.
Question for anyone who has looked at this: how are the factory cables from the battery and from the converter/power centre negative attached to the frame? Are they on studs which are welded to the frame (then the cable held on with a nut), or are they screwed into a hole in the frame?
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02-17-2014, 06:31 PM
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#128
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Galesville, Wisconsin
Trailer: 2017 21 "Blue II" & 2017 Highlander XLE (previously 2010 17B "Blue" & 2008 Tacoma)
Posts: 4,232
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Isn't it standard procedure for RV trailers to use the frame this way?
__________________
Eric (and Mary who is in no way responsible for anything stupid I post)
"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance." George Bernard Shaw
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02-17-2014, 07:11 PM
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#129
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Central, Pennsylvania
Trailer: Escape#5 2022 E19
Posts: 26,268
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I wonder if this came from the factory like this or it was an owner "mod"? Myron, was your trailer used?
__________________
Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
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02-17-2014, 07:28 PM
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#130
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
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Jeez, Jim. Alright, time for another time out, before a stampede back to Chilliwack begins.
Everybody stop what you're doing, go outside, get underneath your trailer and check to see if your negative battery lead is screwed to your frame like mine is. Jim you are excused from doing this because you're snowbound.
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
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02-17-2014, 08:02 PM
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#131
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thoer
Isn't it standard procedure for RV trailers to use the frame this way?
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It's common, but not universal. Neither my 1979 Boler nor my 2003 fifth-wheel stickie uses the frame as the negative conductor, but my Ford F53-chassis motorhome does. My guess is that there is a Ford-approved termination method for the motorhome.
It's particularly common for trailer lighting, although not in fiberglass-bodied travel trailers; also, the pre-wired light kits which are now widely available for trailers are usually completely wired, with no dependence on the frame, presumably for reliability. Myron's inverter - even used moderately - uses far greater current than travel trailer exterior lights, and is more sensitive to voltage drop.
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02-17-2014, 08:10 PM
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#132
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 17,136
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So, perhaps if you had ordered the factory-installed inverter, it would have dedicated ground wire?
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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02-17-2014, 08:13 PM
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#133
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Trailer: 2017 Escape 5.0 TA
Posts: 15,532
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MyronL
Summing up, one may ask, was it all worth it?
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Only you can answer this Myron, but methinks you enjoyed playing with it as much as the resultant.
I am that way with some things, just not this whole inverter thing.
Though I understand how it all works, for now I see no need do add a big inverter like this myself, and am more than happy sticking with the 12V system from the factory which has done me fine for 5 years. I will save my efforts for other mods. 'cause we just gotsta do them.
__________________
2017 Escape 5.0 TA
2015 Ford F150 Lariat 3.5L EcoBoost
2009 Escape 19 (previous)
“Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.” — Abraham Lincoln
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02-17-2014, 08:20 PM
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#134
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Site Team
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Trailer: 2014 Escape 5.0 TA
Posts: 11,023
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Myron, priceless is just that... priceless. Doesn't matter if the rest of us go... hummm. If you like it COOL BEANS FOR YOU!
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02-17-2014, 09:39 PM
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#135
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Oswego, New York
Trailer: 2017 Escape 21C, 2018 Ford F150
Posts: 5,363
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My factory installed cables ran from the batteries to the converter, as does my new, self installed larger cables. The converter and inverter are both connected to the frame, per NEC.
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02-17-2014, 10:43 PM
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#136
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermilye
My factory installed cables ran from the batteries to the converter, as does my new, self installed larger cables. The converter and inverter are both connected to the frame, per NEC.
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Good info, Jon... but does the factory installation use the frame connection for the negative side of the converter circuit (like Myron's), or only for the chassis ground (that is, in addition to wire from battery negative to the power centre)?
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02-18-2014, 03:43 AM
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#137
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southwick, Massachusetts
Trailer: None, sold my 2014 5.0TA
Posts: 7,124
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The print on the Xantrex Prowatt Sw inverter (as well as the one for the Morningstar SureSine) call for connecting the + and - to the battery and the chassis lug to ground. The Morningstar being more descriptive says use earth ground for the chassis and mentions making the ground wire larger then the battery cables. This supports Jons hookup but doesn't address using the frame as a conductor for the -.
__________________
Happy Motoring
Bob
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02-18-2014, 11:17 AM
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#138
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: North Van., British Columbia
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19, sold; 2019 Escape 21, Sept. 2019
Posts: 8,744
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There's quite a difference between using the frame as the return line solely for the negative circuit and bonding the inverter chassis to the frame as well.
If only the frame is used as the conductor then the bad effects of multiple connections subject to corrosion will sooner of later show up. This leads to a hunt for the reason some device is not working correctly or not working at all.
A good example is electric brakes. I've seen the ground wire attached with a lug to the backing plate. It's an area subject to a lot of moisture. If that ground connection fails then so do the brakes. When I install items like that I run the negative wire right back to a negative returning to the battery.
Ron
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02-18-2014, 01:38 PM
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#139
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: ..., New Mexico
Trailer: 2013 Esc19/'14 Silvrado
Posts: 4,193
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So if this negative battery screwed to the frame business could become a real poke in the eye, how come they do it? My dismay also extends to the hundreds of Escape owners who have not yet checked in with a history report on their battery connection. May one legitimately wonder if this is no more than a problem of excess anality?
__________________
Myron
"A billion here, a billion there...add it all up and before you know it you're talking real money." Everett Dirkson
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02-18-2014, 01:53 PM
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#140
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Galesville, Wisconsin
Trailer: 2017 21 "Blue II" & 2017 Highlander XLE (previously 2010 17B "Blue" & 2008 Tacoma)
Posts: 4,232
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Ok, I'll wade in and probably by flayed alive by the experts, but to my (frequently flawed ) thinking Myron, you have easy access to the connection point where the negative wire connects to the frame. As long as no corrosion exists between the wire connector and the frame, a steel frame like the Escapes ought to be able to carry a lot of current. IMO, an easy maintenance check would be to check for resistance between the battery's negative terminal and the Escape's frame. If there is resistance I would take the cable loose, clean everything and use some of the anti-oxidant compound on it.
Let the flaying begin.....
__________________
Eric (and Mary who is in no way responsible for anything stupid I post)
"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance." George Bernard Shaw
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