Escape 21 or 19, help wanted.

[azjack]

years ago.

[Dave Walter]

If we want to be sure that we can handle the loads that our Escape trailers exert on our tow vehicles, we may want to consider moving towards this solution.

[Loren & Cathy]

You just don’t get everything perfect in one tow vehicle. I like the extra towing capacity that a full size pickup.has to offer,but it is a hog in town. Cathy won’t, and has never driven it. Loren

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

I don't want to knock anyone towing with a mid size truck or SUV as long as the tow rating and payload is with in limits, although I'd suggesting carefully checking payload - it is often a limit hit long before towing capacity. I went back & forth between the advantages of an SUV vs a truck, and there are times I'd rather have an SUV, but also times I prefer the truck.

Good summary, Jon.

Sorry all for ranting earlier, I just don't do good with being told nor to speak.

[Greg A]

It’s a fine balancing act and stretching the tow limits topics will proabaly always exist. From what I’ve read here the G2 21’s would probably challenge a TV with a 5k tow rating. I’d put money you’d be over on some of the specs, hitch weight, payload, etc. Even if just under the specs there wouldnt be much margin remaining.
Jon’s real life scenario makes a lot of these points and he was starting with a vehicle with a 6500 tow rating. I have a Nissan Frontier with a 6500 rating and while it tows the 19 fine, it is just a bit light. It could tow a 21 if I had to, but based on its 19 performance I personally wouldn’t want to put it with a 21.
Not saying what someone should or shouldn’t do, and folks always get fussy when these topics come up, but the benefits of continuing to hear towing concerns and limits can be helpful for those needing to pick a vehicle when it is time.

[AllanEdie]

We are still hoping to keep the Tacoma - the better half hates the idea of a larger truck, and neither of us want to be stuck with a large truck for the majority of the year when we are not towing.



Jon, thanks for your summary. Can you tell me when you were forced into 2nd gear with your Tacoma, and how heavily you were loaded? Our trip north from Chilliwack a few weeks ago included some long hills, and we didn't need 2nd gear, only 3rd, which so far I do not mind. OTOH, we were just picking up the trailer, and didn't have the usual stuff we would take on a longer trip. As I indicated earlier in my tow summary, the jury is still out on transmission temperature as well.



We hope to clarify things further on our trip in September, but I doubt that we will get down into the US to see how the truck handles some of the mountain passes down there. Not enough time this season.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

We are still hoping to keep the Tacoma - the better half hates the idea of a larger truck, and neither of us want to be stuck with a large truck for the majority of the year when we are not towing.



Jon, thanks for your summary. Can you tell me when you were forced into 2nd gear with your Tacoma, and how heavily you were loaded? Our trip north from Chilliwack a few weeks ago included some long hills, and we didn't need 2nd gear, only 3rd, which so far I do not mind. OTOH, we were just picking up the trailer, and didn't have the usual stuff we would take on a longer trip. As I indicated earlier in my tow summary, the jury is still out on transmission temperature as well.



We hope to clarify things further on our trip in September, but I doubt that we will get down into the US to see how the truck handles some of the mountain passes down there. Not enough time this season.

Just about any time there was the slightest hill, even on interstates, at 62MPH I'd be in 3rd at close to 4000 RPM. On secondary roads with rolling hills, if you wanted to keep the truck at 60 MPH, it would often shift down to 2nd. I never had a problem with it not being able to keep up with traffic, but the high RPMs was annoying (and gas consuming!). No problems with the transmission temperature - I had a Scan Gauge & kept track. Most of the time, even on hills, it was in the low 200's.(°F)

As to load, I had 1415 pounds in the truck (including the trailer's 500 pound tongue weight), putting me at a total of 5900 or 300 pounds over the rated capacity on the worst weighing. The total (GCWR) was 10060, well within the truck's limit of 11090, but rear axle & payload were both over. That was packed for a long trip, and I carry far too much stuff, hence the move to the F 150.

I will say it was a difficult move - I really loved the Tacoma Off Road. As a non towing truck, or towing the 17, it was great, but I didn't feel it was adequate for the way I travel. If I was doing short drives around my local area, I would have kept it and lived with the limitations (and removed 300 pounds of stuff). With long trips far from home, I wasn't happy getting that close (or over) the truck's payload limits.

[cpaharley2008]

It's all about weight, lose 300# and you could be fine. I know Jon carries a mini-workshop in the back of his vehicle, you need one, he normally has one.... I on the other hand prefer to keep my rpm's lower with less weight.

[John in Santa Cruz]

its funny, I used to have a VW Jetta GLI, which had a 'short ratio gearbox', in its top 5th gear, at 75 MPH you were running 4000 RPM, and it felt just fine. I regularlly ran that car up over 100 MPH, doing 5500 or more RPM. I agree, in the Tacoma 4000 RPM seems loud, and certainly guzzles gas, but its not actually hurting the motor.

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

Just about any time there was the slightest hill, even on interstates, at 62MPH I'd be in 3rd at close to 4000 RPM. On secondary roads with rolling hills, if you wanted to keep the truck at 60 MPH, it would often shift down to 2nd. I never had a problem with it not being able to keep up with traffic, but the high RPMs was annoying (and gas consuming!). No problems with the transmission temperature - I had a Scan Gauge & kept track. Most of the time, even on hills, it was in the low 200's.(°F)

As to load, I had 1415 pounds in the truck (including the trailer's 500 pound tongue weight), putting me at a total of 5900 or 300 pounds over the rated capacity on the worst weighing. The total (GCWR) was 10060, well within the truck's limit of 11090, but rear axle & payload were both over. That was packed for a long trip, and I carry far too much stuff, hence the move to the F 150.

I will say it was a difficult move - I really loved the Tacoma Off Road. As a non towing truck, or towing the 17, it was great, but I didn't feel it was adequate for the way I travel. If I was doing short drives around my local area, I would have kept it and lived with the limitations (and removed 300 pounds of stuff). With long trips far from home, I wasn't happy getting that close (or over) the truck's payload limits.

Excellent information Jon, I appreciate your taking the time to help out. We will almost certainly be traveling with significantly less load than you are, so it will be interesting to see how we make out. We are open to moving to a larger truck if we have to, likely a Tundra, but we would sure like to stick with the Tacoma if we can. We both love the truck, and it is a lot more convenient when we are not towing. Compromises, compromises.

[cpaharley2008]

I looked at the new Tacoma since my 2014 Ram needed tires. The lack of brake controller and tow mode as well as an inept salesperson turned me off for the exchange.

[salmo7000]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

We are still hoping to keep the Tacoma - the better half hates the idea of a larger truck, and neither of us want to be stuck with a large truck for the majority of the year when we are not towing.



Jon, thanks for your summary. Can you tell me when you were forced into 2nd gear with your Tacoma, and how heavily you were loaded? Our trip north from Chilliwack a few weeks ago included some long hills, and we didn't need 2nd gear, only 3rd, which so far I do not mind. OTOH, we were just picking up the trailer, and didn't have the usual stuff we would take on a longer trip. As I indicated earlier in my tow summary, the jury is still out on transmission temperature as well.



We hope to clarify things further on our trip in September, but I doubt that we will get down into the US to see how the truck handles some of the mountain passes down there. Not enough time this season.

I hesitate to weigh in here as I totally understand loyalty to Toyota, particularly Tacomas... but I think it's worth considering the Colorado/Canyon twins with diesel option. These trucks are no larger than a Tacoma but have far more capability. Several folks here tow their 21 with one. My 4X4 Colorado is rated to tow 7,700 lbs and has 1,390 lbs of payload. It's quiet, comfortable, nice to drive, and doesn't feel like a giant truck as it goes down the highway. Even climbing, RPMs stay below 2,000. These trucks come set up for towing, with an exhaust brake, hitch receiver, 7-pin connector, and integrated brake controller. Fuel economy is incredible. The downside of these modern diesels includes increased maintenance costs and the possibility their complicated emissions systems will fail, which appears to be somewhat common. I've had no trouble with mine so far in 9,000+ miles, but definitely something to consider.

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by salmo7000

I hesitate to weigh in here as I totally understand loyalty to Toyota, particularly Tacomas... but I think it's worth considering the Colorado/Canyon twins with diesel option. These trucks are no larger than a Tacoma but have far more capability. Several folks here tow their 21 with one. My 4X4 Colorado is rated to tow 7,700 lbs and has 1,390 lbs of payload. It's quiet, comfortable, nice to drive, and doesn't feel like a giant truck as it goes down the highway. Even climbing, RPMs stay below 2,000. These trucks come set up for towing, with an exhaust brake, hitch receiver, 7-pin connector, and integrated brake controller. Fuel economy is incredible. The downside of these modern diesels includes increased maintenance costs and the possibility their complicated emissions systems will fail, which appears to be somewhat common. I've had no trouble with mine so far in 9,000+ miles, but definitely something to consider.

Thanks for the comment, if we end up considering another tow vehicle, we may have a look. At one point, I was in the market for a diesel, but was put off by reliability and maintenance issues. We shall see...

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

I looked at the new Tacoma since my 2014 Ram needed tires. The lack of brake controller and tow mode as well as an inept salesperson turned me off for the exchange.

Our Tacoma came pre-wired for a controller, and I considered being able to select one I liked as an advantage. Bit more fuss finding somewhere to hang it, but I couldn't be happier with the braking performance.



Too bad about the salesperson. What did you end up buying?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

I looked at the new Tacoma since my 2014 Ram needed tires. The lack of brake controller and tow mode as well as an inept salesperson turned me off for the exchange.

The sales person's ineptitude apparently included being unable to explain that a suitable transmission mode does exist. As discussed a couple of years ago, when the current generation of the Tacoma was new:

Originally Posted by Vermilye

While there is no "Tow/Haul" specifically, there is a "ETC Power" button: "Use when high levels of response and feeling are desirable, such as when driving in mountainous regions or when pulling a trailer."

According to the owner's manual, it's actually "ECT PWR" (as a label on the button) or "power mode"; "ETC" is just a typo.

[tractors1]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The sales person's ineptitude apparently included being unable to explain that a suitable transmission mode does exist. As discussed a couple of years ago, when the current generation of the Tacoma was new:According to the owner's manual, it's actually "ECT PWR" (as a label on the button) or "power mode"; "ETC" is just a typo.

Toyota ECT mode just changes the shift points so the tranny will spin up to higher rpms before shifting. ETC used to stand for Electronic Traction Control.

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

... I'd suggesting carefully checking payload - it is often a limit hit long before towing capacity. ...

Jon has to pay close attention to payload because he takes "tons" of great digital photos during his expeditions. Along with his blogs, he did a great job of photo-documenting our Green Eggs & Ham Rally this past Spring.

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

Our Tacoma came pre-wired for a controller, and I considered being able to select one I liked as an advantage. Bit more fuss finding somewhere to hang it, but I couldn't be happier with the braking performance.



Too bad about the salesperson. What did you end up buying?

I bought new tires and kept the Ram, it only has 35K miles, so other than needing a battery next year, I'm good for another 35K miles.

[steve dunham]

I couldn’t have said it better than Rossue so I won’t !

[Chris & Patricia]

Originally Posted by salmo7000

I hesitate to weigh in here as I totally understand loyalty to Toyota, particularly Tacomas... but I think it's worth considering the Colorado/Canyon twins with diesel option. These trucks are no larger than a Tacoma but have far more capability. Several folks here tow their 21 with one. My 4X4 Colorado is rated to tow 7,700 lbs and has 1,390 lbs of payload. It's quiet, comfortable, nice to drive, and doesn't feel like a giant truck as it goes down the highway. Even climbing, RPMs stay below 2,000. These trucks come set up for towing, with an exhaust brake, hitch receiver, 7-pin connector, and integrated brake controller. Fuel economy is incredible. The downside of these modern diesels includes increased maintenance costs and the possibility their complicated emissions systems will fail, which appears to be somewhat common. I've had no trouble with mine so far in 9,000+ miles, but definitely something to consider.

Based on several comments on the Colorado/Canyon diesel, we recently test drove one and it certainly handled well although this was without towing a trailer. The interior was nice for a relatively smaller vehicle compared to the half ton trucks we had been trying. It was well equipped as mentioned and one useful option was that you could access the back-up camera to look at what you are towing without needing to be in reverse gear. We were also intrigue by the Jake brake option especially to assist with braking on long downhills in the mountain routes we seem to favour.

In the end, we ruled it out due to price; we are looking at pre-owned, and to get one of these vehicles you had to buy new as there wasn't much availability and discounts are hard to come by as they appear to sell well.