Microwave outlet replacement

[tdf-texas]

A little cable management goes a long way. Here are pics of my under bed wiring before and after. Oh, and I upgraded the bed bracing as well.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

No argument there! I agree that many of the "For Microwave Only" stickers are erroneous. There is no dedicated circuit as the sticker would imply but that doesn't negate the need for one.

I don’t think that sticker is meant to imply a dedicated circuit. My guess is that some code or standard requires it to say for microwave use only so it is not used as a general use outlet because it is inside a cabinet.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

I don’t think that sticker is meant to imply a dedicated circuit. My guess is that some code or standard requires it to say for microwave use only so it is not used as a general use outlet because it is inside a cabinet.

Your guess is half right. The requirement for a dedicated microwave circuit is a different code from the one that requires the sticker to be placed but if a sticker is placed, it must reference a dedicated circuit.

CEC 26-710

(h) a receptacle shall not be placed in a cupboard, cabinet, or similar enclosure, except where the receptacle is
(i) an integral part of a factory-built enclosure;
(ii) provided for use with a specific type of appliance that is suitable for installation within the enclosure;
(iii) intended only for a microwave oven;
(iv) intended only for a cord-connected range hood; or
(v) intended only for a cord-connected combination microwave oven/range hood fan;

This is the code that requires the microwave outlet to be dedicated if installed in a cabinet.

26-720 [d] Each receptacle installed in a cupboard, wall cabinet or enclosure for the use of a microwave oven in accordance with rule 26-710 [i] shall be supplied by a branch circuit that does not supply any other outlets and this circuit shall not be considered as forming part of the circuits required under rule 26-722 [b]

[tdf-texas]

This thread is forcing me to learn Canadian Electrical Code! For the most part, CEC is the same as the NEC - I look up the NEC references in my code books and then find the equivalent in the CEC online.

Here's the rub - it looks like our trailers are not in compliance in some areas with either US or Canadian electric code requirements. Other areas such as the use of non CTL panels and breakers (not UL approved) are in violation of US electrical code. I don't think any of these issues are dangerous but they would give the insurance carriers ammo to deny a claim for damage.

Not all electrical codes apply to a RV. For example, NEC requires that the main service to a building is no less than a 100 amp service. Since a RV doesn't have a "main service", that code doesn't apply. However, most of the electrical codes do apply and should be followed where applicable. Again, NEC code has to be adopted by the "local jursidiction" to be enforceable but where installations would cross multiple jurisdictions (such as a RV or mobile home), the rule is to be in compliance with all applicable NEC code requirements.

I've pointed out a few of the code issues that I will pass on to Rease but I would appreciate it if you know of any other electrical issues that needs to be passed on. Taking care of these issues is easy if done while building the trailer - going back afterwards to redo the wiring is another matter. It could be done - just not as easily.

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

Emile, if you feel brave enough to tackle making the microwave circuit dedicated, you could install a T&B box (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000NDZ24I...a-312403816781) in the microwave cavity, run a length of 14/3 romex from the box down to the converter panel, and add/change a breaker for an additional 15 amp circuit. It would make life a lot easier in the long run and would get the microwave cable out of the GFCI outlet box.

ps. the T&B box I linked to doesn't need cable clamps added as it has them built in.

Good Luck!

How does one intend on running 2 circuits on a 14/3 NM when the trailer service is 120 VAC
and not 120 / 240 VAC ? . The neutral would carry the sum of the loads and not the difference between the hot legs
You need a 120/ 240 VAC service to run multi wire circuits

Or I am not reading your post correctly !!

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

How does one intend on running 2 circuits on a 14/3 NM when the trailer service is 120 VAC
and not 120 / 240 VAC ? . The neutral would carry the sum of the loads and not the difference between the hot legs
You need a 120/ 240 VAC service to run multi wire circuits

Or I am not reading your post correctly !!

I believe that the suggestion was to disconnect the microwave outlet from the outside outlet from which it is currently fed, and run directly to the Power Center instead on a dedicated circuit. The cable would be 14/2 NM, not 14/3... likely just a typo.

[John in Santa Cruz]

isn't 14/3 black(live/hot), white(neutral), green-or-bare(ground) ? I thought 120/240 stuff uses /4 wiring with the above plus red (live2)

[steve dunham]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

isn't 14/3 black(live/hot), white(neutral), green-or-bare(ground) ? I thought 120/240 stuff uses /4 wiring with the above plus red (live2)

NO what you are describing is 14/2
14/3. NM consists of a black , a red . a white and a bare or green

[John in Santa Cruz]

hmm, ok. I have some 12/2 marine wire here thats got no ground, its just 2 conductor.

says...
LAWRENCE MARINE --- 12 AWG/2 COND E67078 (UL) EC-5W2 BOAT CABLE 600V 105C DRY (75C WET) OIL RESISTANT --- MADE IN USA - ABYC RoHS COMPLIANT - UL1426 BOAT CABLE
(I use this for DC wiring)

so, I guess its the NM stuff thats assumed to have an addditional ground conductor ?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

isn't 14/3 black(live/hot), white(neutral), green-or-bare(ground) ? I thought 120/240 stuff uses /4 wiring with the above plus red (live2)

No, it works like this...

Originally Posted by steve dunham

NO what you are describing is 14/2
14/3. NM consists of a black , a red . a white and a bare or green

Black for the first (hot) line, red for the second (hot) line, white for neutral, and bare or green for ground.

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

hmm, ok. I have some 12/2 marine wire here thats got no ground, its just 2 conductor.
...
so, I guess its the NM stuff thats assumed to have an addditional ground conductor ?

That's it - the ground conductor isn't counted in this nomenclature.

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by steve dunham

How does one intend on running 2 circuits on a 14/3 NM when the trailer service is 120 VAC
and not 120 / 240 VAC ? . The neutral would carry the sum of the loads and not the difference between the hot legs
You need a 120/ 240 VAC service to run multi wire circuits

Or I am not reading your post correctly !!

Sorry guys, It was a typo and was suppose to be 14/2 romex.

I saw the error after the edit capability had gone and thought - well nobody will notice.

[goyakpacking]

If there is no "test"/"reset" button indicating it is a GFI, you should be able to replace it with a standard outlet, that you can make fit.

Being a tech/electrician many years I am against any type of quick connect such as stab lock, punch down etc. All of these cause problems due to vibration. They don't even work well in residential houses.

I would suggest if at all possible using a receptacle with screw down terminals. On your wire ends, preferably solder on the loop type ring terminals, the proper size for the receptacle screw and wire gauge. (Do Not even use a spade tip terminal) Heat shrink the exposed solder. Then remove the receptacle screw and insert it through the terminal ring and tighten securely to the receptacle. If you can't solder them on (the ring terminals), use a good crimp tool that is properly sized.

[SWCO]

I prefer soldering ring terminal connections, but the instructions on the EMS HW30C I just received warn against soldering these connections (they provide ring terminals with the unit, to be used only with stranded wire).

Can someone with an electrical background explain why they warn against soldering connections? Thanks.

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by SWCO

I prefer soldering ring terminal connections, but the instructions on the EMS HW30C I just received warn against soldering these connections (they provide ring terminals with the unit, to be used only with stranded wire).

Can someone with an electrical background explain why they warn against soldering connections? Thanks.

One possible reason - If the connector overheats, the solder may melt, breaking the connection.

Although probably not the reason here, I found that tinning stranded wire that is clamped under a screw can cause problems. The soldered stranded wire doesn't "press back" on the screw head and over time, the connection loosens. I discovered the problem with more than 200 extension cords used for theatre lighting. The state insisted that the supplier tin the stranded wire & we had enough problems with failed connections over the first year of use that we finally cut all the cords back enough to reconnect them with out the tinning.

[steve dunham]

Trade practice is to only use crimp on wire connectors with stranded wire
Many crimp on terminations are UL listed for stranded wire only
I have seen several instances of solid wires coming loose in crimp terminations over time or with vibration

[tdf-texas]

Originally Posted by SWCO

I prefer soldering ring terminal connections, but the instructions on the EMS HW30C I just received warn against soldering these connections (they provide ring terminals with the unit, to be used only with stranded wire).

Can someone with an electrical background explain why they warn against soldering connections? Thanks.

The rule for soldered connections is insure a solid mechanical connection is made prior to applying solder to the connection. Because this is not always done which can cause failures, the warning to not solder is made forcing the use of a good mechanical connection (crimp) for terminations.

Soldering a connection eliminates oxidation and adds mechanical strength but it should not be used to insure electrical continuity - that's the job of the mechanical connection.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by tdf-texas

The rule for soldered connections is insure a solid mechanical connection is made prior to applying solder to the connection. Because this is not always done which can cause failures, the warning to not solder is made forcing the use of a good mechanical connection (crimp) for terminations.

Soldering a connection eliminates oxidation and adds mechanical strength but it should not be used to insure electrical continuity - that's the job of the mechanical connection.

Yep, or as my Dad used to say, 'Solder is not structural.'

[John in Santa Cruz]

and a *properly* crimped connection is gas tight.