I am referring to someone who damaged his vehicle.
But who? I'm just trying to help replace rumour with objective information that might be useful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
Okay - who? Not Steve's Honda Pilot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by float5
Did he say he damaged his vehicle?
Steve initially thought that this vehicle's structure was damaged, but we quickly sorted out the parts and realized that only the hitch (which is also the bumper support bar) was bent. Since then, there have been incorrect references to this incident as evidence of unibody damage - that's the only reason that I mentioned it.
At this point, I assume that there has never been a confirmed report in this forum of anyone damaging the unibody structure of their vehicle by towing... but of course I may be mistaken. I notice this sort of discussion, but may not remember them all.
I am going to put this here even though not on tongue weight because it has already been covered here and it is generally about weight.
Some people have a very light load and can use a Highlander when others cannot. We use a 4Runner. While both claim a 5,000 towing capacity, the Highlander has less than 10,000 for its GCWR whereas the 4Runner has 11,300. That is a whopping big difference.
I never have to worry about exceeding the GVWR of 6,300 on the 4Runner because I won't even come close. If I had a Highlander though, I and most if not many others could easily exceed the allowable GVWR and GCWR. I would have to be constantly looking at the weight situation. The 6,300 plus the 5,000 of the 4Runner add to the GCWR provided by the manufacturer of 11,300. No such thing with a Highlander. These are numbers that prospective owners need to consider. Because we meet the numbers for a 4Runner or someone else meets the numbers for a Highlander, however, has nothing to do with any prospective Escape owners and what they need.
Of course, there are those who do not even consider a 4Runner adequate, had one, and have gone to something more powerful for mountains or Interstates or other reasons. We meet the numbers just fine and it works for us. What someone needs is based upon their own situation, options and loading.
Prospective Escape owners should hopefully decide on exactly which model they want and then decide on a tow vehicle that will meet the numbers. If soon-to-be buyers already have a vehicle, they can load the tow vehicle as if going camping and weigh it at a truck stop. Look at all of the numbers for the vehicle to see if it meets them. GVWR, GCWR, tongue weight, loaded trailer weight --- which is commonly at least a thousand pounds over dry weight once options and cargo are added.
The numbers are not at all difficult to understand. You simply look at them and soon enough you will know what you have. GVWR is often in the vehicle door. The manufacturer provides the GCWR, towing and tongue capacity. Escape provides their allowable total weight for each trailer. Loaded weights are sometimes given by members but an easy start is to add 1,000 pounds to the dry weight because options are often at least 500 lbs. That can give you a very general idea of the loaded trailer weight since so many people unfortunately use dry weight. They then wonder why they are overloaded. Add a thousand to it.
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Cathy. Floating Cloud
"Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.... "
Emerson
Brian, so you do not consider there to be any difference towing with a truck chassis vs. unibody, that they are more or less equal? No advantage to having a truck chassis for the same small trailer? Just a claim by the truck people. No difference when using a WDH with either also?
Yes, they are equal for loads which are equally within their capacity, assuming that by "truck chassis" you mean a separate body and frame. I realize that this may confuse things a little, but the 4Runner chassis is built like light trucks, and shares many components with Toyota's Tacoma, Tundra, and Hilux; however, 4Runner's chassis is not used in any pickup truck or commercial vehicle - the 4Runner SUV is no more a "truck" than a Highlander SUV or a Sienna van is. None of Toyota's pickups have a rear suspension like the 4Runner.
The WDH works exactly the same way regardless of the structural design, so it has the same effect on the behaviour of the vehicle. As long as the forces applied by the WD system are within the limits of the structure, it doesn't matter what the structure is.
There are more significant differences between vehicles than structure. For instance, both the 4Runner and the Sequoia have separate body-on-frame construction and use many components in common with the Toyota pickups, but the 4Runner has a beam axle while the Sequoia has an independent suspension. The pickups have beam axles, too, but on basic leaf springs instead of the 4Runner's coil springs and multiple control arms. The mostly unrelated Highlander has a different independent suspension. The control and stiffness of the suspension is important to towing, and the frame construction doesn't determine the suspension design or tuning.
But who? I'm just trying to help replace rumour with objective information that might be useful.
Steve initially thought that this vehicle's structure was damaged, but we quickly sorted out the parts and realized that only the hitch (which is also the bumper support bar) was bent. Since then, there have been incorrect references to this incident as evidence of unibody damage - that's the only reason that I mentioned it.
At this point, I assume that there has never been a confirmed report in this forum of anyone damaging the unibody structure of their vehicle by towing... but of course I may be mistaken. I notice this sort of discussion, but may not remember them all.
Are you referring to a part of the vehicle that came with it when he bought it?
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Cathy. Floating Cloud
"Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.... "
Emerson
Are you referring to a part of the vehicle that came with it when he bought it?
Yes, the towing hitch is a standard part of the Pilot, just as it is on many vehicles. It is no more or less part of the vehicle structure than other bits bolted on to any vehicle, whether unibody or body-on-frame. If you want to count the hitch receiver itself as "vehicle structure", then Steve's was damaged by towing... but entirely unrelated to the type of construction of the rest of the vehicle. Many GM pickup trucks had failures of their factory hitches, due to a less-than-ideal design used for several years (just do a web search for "bent gm factory hitch"); again, that was not in any way to related to their body-on-frame construction.
Yes, they are equal for loads which are equally within their capacity, ........
There are more significant differences between vehicles than structure. For instance, both the 4Runner and the Sequoia have separate body-on-frame construction and use many components in common with the Toyota pickups, but the 4Runner has a beam axle while the Sequoia has an independent suspension.The pickups have beam axles, too, but on basic leaf springs instead of the 4Runner's coil springs and multiple control arms. The mostly unrelated Highlander has a different independent suspension. The control and stiffness of the suspension is important to towing, and the frame construction doesn't determine the suspension design or tuning.
The Ram 1500 has coil rear suspensions, not leaf springs.
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Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
The Ram 1500 has coil rear suspensions, not leaf springs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbryan4
I'm pretty sure he was referring to the Toyota trucks, comparing them to the 4-Runner suspension.
Sorry, I might not have been clear about the scope of the comparison. Yep - all-Toyota.
The Ram 2500/3500 have coil spring rear suspensions now, too. Both sizes (1500 and 2500) have optional air suspension, replacing the coils. And just to stir things up... the Honda Ridgeline pickup has an independent suspension at the rear.
Of course, the 4Runner is an SUV and that is what I think of it as but it does have a truck chassis. It is, interestingly just for your info, classified as a truck by Texas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
Yes, they are equal for loads which are equally within their capacity, assuming that by "truck chassis" you mean a separate body and frame. I realize that this may confuse things a little, but the 4Runner chassis is built like light trucks, and shares many components with Toyota's Tacoma, Tundra, and Hilux; however, 4Runner's chassis is not used in any pickup truck or commercial vehicle - the 4Runner SUV is no more a "truck" than a Highlander SUV or a Sienna van is. None of Toyota's pickups have a rear suspension like the 4Runner.
The WDH works exactly the same way regardless of the structural design, so it has the same effect on the behaviour of the vehicle. As long as the forces applied by the WD system are within the limits of the structure, it doesn't matter what the structure is.
There are more significant differences between vehicles than structure. For instance, both the 4Runner and the Sequoia have separate body-on-frame construction and use many components in common with the Toyota pickups, but the 4Runner has a beam axle while the Sequoia has an independent suspension. The pickups have beam axles, too, but on basic leaf springs instead of the 4Runner's coil springs and multiple control arms. The mostly unrelated Highlander has a different independent suspension. The control and stiffness of the suspension is important to towing, and the frame construction doesn't determine the suspension design or tuning.
__________________
Cathy. Floating Cloud
"Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.... "
Emerson
Of course, the 4Runner is an SUV and that is what I think of it as but it does have a truck chassis. It is, interestingly just for your info, classified as a truck by Texas.
The Chrysler PT Cruiser, Chevrolet HHR, and Ford Transit Connect are all classified as "trucks", by at least one agency; all are multipurpose unibody vehicles based on the same platform as passenger cars (the Neon, Cobalt, and Focus). The classification as a "truck" is typically based on purpose, rather than construction. By that standard, nearly every SUV and small van is on a truck chassis, because some variant of the same platform is used in a small commercial vehicle. In addition to the small "city" sized vehicles, nearly all modern "full sized" commercial vans - including the Mercedes Sprinter, Ford Transit, and Ram ProMaster - have unibody structures, and they're clearly trucks by any reasonable definition. That's the problem with the term "truck chassis": it doesn't mean anything specific, or useful.
Separate body-on-frame construction is a specific design feature which is more meaningful; among light vehicles it is now commonly used only in most pickup trucks and some SUVs.
I have heard something about a truck designation, or not, being related to requirements that the vehicle must meet. Then again, it could be related to taxes or something else. It would likely be different in this country from Canada. It is likely partly political here from what I have heard. Lobbyists could be in on it more than engineers.
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Cathy. Floating Cloud
"Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.... "
Emerson
Not that I want to get involved in this but, my Highlander is licensed as a truck in Wisconsin. I had the choice when titling and since my Tacoma plates were still valid, by titling as a truck I could use those same plates.
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Eric (and Mary who is in no way responsible for anything stupid I post)
"Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance." George Bernard Shaw
Not that I want to get involved in this but, my Highlander is licensed as a truck in Wisconsin. I had the choice when titling and since my Tacoma plates were still valid, by titling as a truck I could use those same plates.
That's interesting that they asked you which you wanted. I was looking at our IA registration and there is no truck designation that I can find as in TX. Perhaps it is state by state then.
I remember a big to-do once about whether certain vehicles would be classified as trucks or not and come under truck rather than passenger car requirements.
Perhaps there are different designations for the same vehicle depending upon what kind of office and the purpose. They all make up their own categories?!
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Cathy. Floating Cloud
"Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.... "
Emerson
Ok, I have weighted my Gen 2 19' for the 3rd time. This time I was able to use the scales at the local quarry that I am friends with so on a Sunday I had all the time I wanted to play with it. First off if I stepped on the scale with just my body weight it weighted 200 lb which is what I weigh.
I unhooked the trailer on the scale and pulled the truck off.
Total loaded weight 3740 lb. This is the heaviest of the 3 times I have weighed it but since I was not hurrying I feel it was the most accurate. Moved the trailer on the scale and got the same reading.
Hooked the truck back up and took several trailer axle weights
total axle weight 3220 lb.
That would be a tongue weight of 520 lb.
I came home and weighed my tongue weight with my Sherline scale again with all tanks and water heater empty and it was 540 lb.
Total combined weight of truck and trailer was 9980 lb with me and the wife in the truck so that comes out about right. Base curb weight listed at 5520 for my truck and I have some stuff in the tool box.
Our options that affect weight are
A/C
Dual 6 Volt
Front box
Inverter
4 reinforced walls
Surge protector
U-Shaped dinette
Extra insulation and frame-less windows
Extra bath and Kitchen window
Power tongue jack
12" filler board
Dining table not installed
Thanks for those numbers, my Escape 21 numbers were 500 t/w and 3800 axle=total 4300 or about 500# more than the 2nd G 19 model. I lost some weight.......
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Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
I have heard something about a truck designation, or not, being related to requirements that the vehicle must meet. Then again, it could be related to taxes or something else. It would likely be different in this country from Canada.
Yes, in both Canada and the U.S. trucks have lesser federal requirements for passenger safety than passenger cars (although an individual "truck" may be built to the same standards as "cars" from the same company), and there are taxation differences for importation. The manufacturer can designate which they want a particular model to be, within limits, and that affects how their Corporate Average Fuel Economy is assessed, which is why some small vans and wagons with suffient cargo capacity have been designated as trucks. A classic example of maneouvers that result is Ford importing Transit Connects to the U.S. (from Turkey) with seats and rear windows (so they're passenger vehicles and so exempt from a higher U.S. import tax on light trucks) then stripping the seats out and replacing those windows with steel panels after arrival, to make them into commercial vans for sale. The Texas and Wisconsin examples show how states (and presumably provinces) play with vehicle categories and change licensing and taxation rules accordingly.
The classification is supposed to reflect use (trucks don't primarily carry people, passenger cars and buses do), and not design or construction.
Yes, the safety requirements that of course the companies don't want to pay for, came into it. Many vehicles designated "trucks" were becoming used more as passenger vehicles but were not as safe.
Safety features in general seem to have increased and improved in recent years, for passenger vehicles anyway.
__________________
Cathy. Floating Cloud
"Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air.... "
Emerson
Not Steve's Honda Pilot.
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