Water pump problems

[PGDriver]

Originally Posted by thoer

.... stumbles away muttering......

Pretty much sums it up for me too. [emoji850]


Cheers
Doug

[Greg A]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

It's not likely the wheels will ever fall off of Glenn's trailer. his friends will torque his nuts any time he's camped around them.
Iowa Dave

I need to make sure I miss this.....

[Brian B-P]

Since my pumps are all mounted horizontally - and I've never had a problem with one - I wondered if the vertical orientation might be a concern. It might contribute to problems, but it's not against Shurflo instructions: what they explicitly say is:

Pump may be mounted in any position.

They don't even suggest a preference.

At some point Escape was using Artis pumps. Their installation manual says that if the pump is mounted vertically, the head should be downward.

I've never had a problem with a well pump, either, but I'll note that they are normally an entirely different design. It's not just price - an RV pump is a diaphragm design, while well pumps are normally centrifugal (like a car engine's coolant pump). Centrifugal pumps are mechanically extremely simple (no valves, only one rotating seal) and can be expected to run for many years without maintenance. Deep-well submersible pumps (I think mine is 140 feet down) usually need multiple impellers to develop sufficient pressure. Well pumps are used with large accumulators, and would probably not be tolerable if started each time a faucet is opened; while RV fresh water pumps can be used with accumulators, they do not need them.

The diaphragm pumps used in RVs are self-priming, respond rapidly, and usually last a long time. On the other hand, they are subject to problems with mineral deposits, and are noisy. All of this is true regardless of brand or price; I assume there are better brands at higher prices, but not having had a problem I don't have any idea which brand would be preferable.

[Donna D.]

If the hot water tank is full, all the water lines are charged because you were hooked up to city water and ran the taps, the water tank is about 1/3 full and all by pass valves are in the correct position for use... how long can you expect to run the water pump before water actually starts flowing to the taps? TIA.

[padlin]

Mine starts flowing right away in the scenario you mention, just did it yesterday.

If that's not your case, you may have air in the pump. In the past I have had occurrences where it took a minute or so to get water pumping through the pump. Been a long time though.

[thoer]

Donna, we had have pretty much the exact experience Bob describes - usually just a few seconds, but I too have had a few instances where it has taken longer.

[Donna D.]

Thanks group. I have time to go out and see if the check valve needs to be reset. Guess I should see if this stuff works a bit more often than once every three years or so

[thoer]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

Thanks group. I have time to go out and see if the check valve needs to be reset. Guess I should see if this stuff works a bit more often than once every three years or so

If you want to let it run for a while and see if it primes, Reace told me when he was working on our hose replacement, that running them dry is not harmful to these pumps.

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

I for one feel your pain . We have gone 3 pumps in 3 years . I carry a new pump with me just in case , of course so far ,just been carrying the new pump . The longest we gotten , oh , oh shouldn't of said that . Hope the pump didn't hear . I cut the bed ply and hinged the ply to make a door I can access sitting on top of ply . We don't have the Escape bed though so it is easier to fold it out of the way . We have air and latex foam . Very uncomfortable to fix the pump laying on your side . Really don't understand why these pumps keep failing , never had this problem before . Sorry you have to deal with this . I have just learned to deal and change and fix what I can . Pat

Just had to replace #4 water pump on the road . I learned to carry a spare . We are just shy of 4 years . Something is not right . Was going to wait until we got home but it was a pain to have trouble washing your hands . Showers and toilet were not a problem but the luxury of washing your hands is . With the AC blasting at a campground changed out to # 4 pump . Success , back in business . Put in a call to Shurflo when we got home ,and the only thing mentioned was to install on the cold side of the water heater , a check valve with a 100-150 PSI . Anyone have pictures or any help appreciated. I know very little about plumbing as well as electrical . He said to get 1/2 in and they are recommended with the use of their pumps since the 70's . However RV manufacturers aren't installing them as they should . I also wanted to know about verticle as opposed to horizontal installation . He said that shouldn't make a difference . I still may change that considering all my past pumps were installed horizontal. Shurflo gave me instructions on how to bypass the pressure switch on the pump I removed #3 I used the Subie car battery for my 12 volt source. Pump runs bypassing the switch . So I have one on order from Amazon and hope to fix #3 as a spare . After I install pressure switch on #3 will use bucket of water and see if it works . The positives on this trip
, our refrigerator worked great in 100's and love the Sam fan upgrade . Of course the Smart Plug is "Smart " Anyway any help with this check valve would be helpful . Pat

[Greg A]

Pat,
While I haven't lost a pump yet in ours, I am following your pump adventures closely. I've put new Shurflo pumps for years in Scamps and never had a failure, so the failure rate that we've witnessed on these is an indicator of something that is causing an early demise to water pumps.
I just got the accumulator and will install that which will help take load off the pump. I'd highly recommend you look at adding one. I'll look at the other issues Shurflo mentioned when I'm in there installing the accumulator.

[War Eagle]

Pat, Do you have, or can you install, a water filter just prior to freshwater entering the pump? I believe it was on FiberglassRV forum someone kept having problems right after filling their freshwater tank, and it appeared a layer of sediment had built up on the bottom of their freshwater tank from a bad previous campsite, and when stirred up from filling, some of the crud would find it's way into the pump and mess up operation of the one-way valves in the pump. A filter would keep any such crud in the freshwater tank from reaching the pump. Just asking....

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Pat, Do you have, or can you install, a water filter just prior to freshwater entering the pump? I believe it was on FiberglassRV forum someone kept having problems right after filling their freshwater tank, and it appeared a layer of sediment had built up on the bottom of their freshwater tank from a bad previous campsite, and when stirred up from filling, some of the crud would find it's way into the pump and mess up operation of the one-way valves in the pump. A filter would keep any such crud in the freshwater tank from reaching the pump. Just asking....

Hi War Eagle yes filter is before entering pump . Escape had originally installed one on pump #1. Problem with that one ,screen cut into lid allowing air to enter system . You couldn't see it until you removed filter and inspected it. Called Shurflo and they sent me the better one with domed lid as a replacement . So still trying to figure this out . In Home on water distiller has a Shurflo that has been in operation since 1994 mounted horizontal. So it is a mystery . Pat

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by Greg A

Pat,
While I haven't lost a pump yet in ours, I am following your pump adventures closely. I've put new Shurflo pumps for years in Scamps and never had a failure, so the failure rate that we've witnessed on these is an indicator of something that is causing an early demise to water pumps.
I just got the accumulator and will install that which will help take load off the pump. I'd highly recommend you look at adding one. I'll look at the other issues Shurflo mentioned when I'm in there installing the accumulator.

Hi Greg beat you to it. Saw you ordered one so already ordered from Amazon .yes something is not right , but I am on a mission and am giving this my best to figure it out . Pat

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Pat, Do you have, or can you install, a water filter just prior to freshwater entering the pump? I believe it was on FiberglassRV forum someone kept having problems right after filling their freshwater tank, and it appeared a layer of sediment had built up on the bottom of their freshwater tank from a bad previous campsite, and when stirred up from filling, some of the crud would find it's way into the pump and mess up operation of the one-way valves in the pump. A filter would keep any such crud in the freshwater tank from reaching the pump. Just asking....

War Eagle just reread your post are you talking about another kind of water filter ? Pat

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

...
Put in a call to Shurflo when we got home ,and the only thing mentioned was to install on the cold side of the water heater , a check valve with a 100-150 PSI . Anyone have pictures or any help appreciated. I know very little about plumbing as well as electrical . He said to get 1/2 in and they are recommended with the use of their pumps since the 70's . However RV manufacturers aren't installing them as they should.

A check valve allows flow in only one direction, which would be from the pump to the water heater in this case. The pressure rating presumably indicates the amount of pressure difference that the valve can hold back, if the downstream side (the water heater in this case) rises in pressure above the upstream side.

There is a check valve in every Escape, in the city water inlet fitting (so the pump doesn't spray water from your tank out of the unused city water inlet). Among RV parts the check valve for the city water inlet is normally an integral part of the inlet, but it is available separately, sometimes called a backflow preventer. These valves are available in plastic or brass, and with pipe threads or PEX barb.

The 1/2" size is simply the nominal size of tubing (pipe) that fits each side of the valve. RV check valves would typically be 1/2", because that's the size of almost all of the freshwater plumbing. Check valves are more commonly found (in residential plumbing) in waste and sump pump applications, which use larger sizes and lower pressures; I don't even see one at Home Depot smaller than one inch.

The reason for this check valve would presumably be that if the water heater heats up without any hot water being used, the water will try to expand in the tank and with nowhere to go it will rise in pressure... perhaps to the point of damaging the pump. This should not be a big problem most of the time, because there is normally some air in the top of the water heater's tank, which acts as an accumulator: the air compresses instead of the water rising to a very high pressure. I know this pressure increase occurs, because I have had a spurt of water from a faucet (more than pump outlet pressure would cause) when the hot water is first used after the heater has been turned on.

That person may have been recommending this type of check valve installation for four decades, but the current installation manuals which I downloaded from Shurflo (the company is actually Pentair - Shurflo is the brand name) earlier this year have no mention of this. The manuals do detail everything else that could be significant about the installation (flexible lines, distance from the tank, mounting surface...) so I don't think this is a real recommendation from the pump manufacturer. It even conflicts with one of the installation guidelines, which is to minimize flow restrictions. I certainly wouldn't blame an RV manufacturer for not following a recommendation which was not given to them.

[thoer]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

.... I certainly wouldn't blame an RV manufacturer for not following a recommendation which was not given to them.

but some sure will!

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

War Eagle just reread your post are you talking about another kind of water filter ? Pat

Nothing special. Just a fine screen filter or something like that to keep any particulate (sand, etc.) that might happen to get into the freshwater tank from then flowing to and getting lodged in some working component of the pump like the one-way valves. From your earlier reply, it sounds like you have such an inline filter already.

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Nothing special. Just a fine screen filter or something like that to keep any particulate (sand, etc.) that might happen to get into the freshwater tank from then flowing to and getting lodged in some working component of the pump like the one-way valves. From your earlier reply, it sounds like you have such an inline filter already.

Yup from the sound of it . We have the screen filter already . So back to the drawing board . Pat

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

A check valve allows flow in only one direction, which would be from the pump to the water heater in this case. The pressure rating presumably indicates the amount of pressure difference that the valve can hold back, if the downstream side (the water heater in this case) rises in pressure above the upstream side.

There is a check valve in every Escape, in the city water inlet fitting (so the pump doesn't spray water from your tank out of the unused city water inlet). Among RV parts the check valve for the city water inlet is normally an integral part of the inlet, but it is available separately, sometimes called a backflow preventer. These valves are available in plastic or brass, and with pipe threads or PEX barb.

The 1/2" size is simply the nominal size of tubing (pipe) that fits each side of the valve. RV check valves would typically be 1/2", because that's the size of almost all of the freshwater plumbing. Check valves are more commonly found (in residential plumbing) in waste and sump pump applications, which use larger sizes and lower pressures; I don't even see one at Home Depot smaller than one inch.

The reason for this check valve would presumably be that if the water heater heats up without any hot water being used, the water will try to expand in the tank and with nowhere to go it will rise in pressure... perhaps to the point of damaging the pump. This should not be a big problem most of the time, because there is normally some air in the top of the water heater's tank, which acts as an accumulator: the air compresses instead of the water rising to a very high pressure. I know this pressure increase occurs, because I have had a spurt of water from a faucet (more than pump outlet pressure would cause) when the hot water is first used after the heater has been turned on.

That person may have been recommending this type of check valve installation for four decades, but the current installation manuals which I downloaded from Shurflo (the company is actually Pentair - Shurflo is the brand name) earlier this year have no mention of this. The manuals do detail everything else that could be significant about the installation (flexible lines, distance from the tank, mounting surface...) so I don't think this is a real recommendation from the pump manufacturer. It even conflicts with one of the installation guidelines, which is to minimize flow restrictions. I certainly wouldn't blame an RV manufacturer for not following a recommendation which was not given to them.

Brian all I can relay is what I was told from tech support at Shurflo . I just want a answer why our pumps keep failing . Now I am going in the direction of the instalation . How many 19 's 2013 maybe 2012 keep having their pumps fail as we have ? Something is wrong . I am trying to get to the bottom of this . Pat

[Klem]

Originally Posted by Patandlinda

Brian all I can relay is what I was told from tech support at Shurflo . I just want a answer why our pumps keep failing . Now I am going in the direction of the instalation . How many 19 's 2013 maybe 2012 keep having their pumps fail as we have ? Something is wrong . I am trying to get to the bottom of this . Pat

2014 19 on the list ... And it is puzzling what really went wrong. When we got to Moab after (see below) I went to the RV store and the guy pulled one out of a case of them. He said it would 'work' when I put it in. But I could buy a rebuild kit which may fix it but almost cost as much. I swapped it out and when we got home just set the broken pump on the shelf and bought another new one to carry with me.

The puzzling part was that it was working when we left home for a month long trip. The first time it didn't work it sounded weak and I hit it with a flash light ... and it worked. The next time it stopped pumping I hit it with a flash light and it worked a couple days later. The next time I beat the crap out of it and it never sucked up the water. I overfilled the fresh water tank and got it working again. a couple days later I filled the tank but it stopped priming ( I could see water was not being drawn up the intake tube. I overfilled it again and it didn't work. Parked it nose up, and nose down, but it didn't work. Then it worked ... then it didn't. Got to Moab and replaced it.


When on the road I always but an inline water filter and pressure regulator on the hose either to hook it to City Water or fill the tank.

I did carefully take off the head and look at the filter of the bad one in Moab and everything looked good.

Looking back at what I did to make it work, not, work, it doesn't make sense other then the coincidence that it worked?

What kind of failure is 'common'. Mine obviously wouldn't prime, I could see it, which should point to the directional valve body. And I would like to think it was debri, weak spring, or? It would work for a day or two, not work, then work a day or two again. Power is good and it would always make the noise of a pump trying to run with different tones depending on if there was water or not.