5.0TA 1/2 Ton tow vehicle dilemma

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Scuba55

Possible diesel for the F-150 is coming. I have read this same rumor on other sites:

Spied: 2017 Ford F-150 TurboDiesel - PickupTrucks.com News

Yes, its a widely shared rumour and it makes some sense; however, if you're interested in light truck diesel offerings you may remember that the Toyota Tundra was "known" to be coming out with a diesel (specifically the same Cummins 5.0 V8 as now used by Nissan in the Titan XD)... and it was supposed to be for sale by now. Toyota doesn't sell that diesel Tundra, or any other diesel pickup or Toyota-branded vehicle of any kind in North America, and there is no evidence that they have ever suggested in any official communication that they ever will.

I wouldn't hold off on a truck purchase waiting for an F-150 diesel.

By the way, that particular sighting bases the engine in the sighted truck as the Lion 3.0 V6 diesel based entirely on the shape of the exhaust tip.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

I'm curious about the long-term durability of the Ford EcoBoost engine. Just before I retired a man who worked for me bought a Ford F150 with what must have been the first generation EcoBoost engine. As I was starting to look at potential tow vehicles I looked it over. He asked me how much towing I intended to do. I said I didn't know yet, but probably 200 miles every two weeks. The truck's owner said that would probably be okay, but he wouldn't tow with his on a daily basis because he didn't think the engine would hold up over time.

So the truck's owner hasn't had any problems, but doesn't think it would be reliable? Lacking any other basis than what has been mentioned, I can't see any reason to consider that F-150 owner's opinion of any relevance.

If concerned about reliability with an EcoBoost, I suggest looking into the frequency of turbocharger failures, although I don't know of any actual problem. Based only on scattered anecdotal reports, and the history of turbos with other engines, turbochargers seem to be the only mechanical parts of a V6 EcoBoost to be a potential concern.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Bobnjudy

Just towed our new Scamp 19 DL from MN to TX in 25 mph wind in the grill. Got 14.5. In no wind got 17. Mph was 65 on cruise. Camper weighed 2800 and 700 on the ball. Zero problems with that load. 300 HP, direct injection, 6 speed. 27 hwy @ 70 w/o the trailer going north.

To put this in context for Escape owners and fans who are not familiar with Scamps, a Scamp 19 is roughly the same size and configuration as the original Escape 5.0 (single axle).

[Mike Lewis]

The owner of the F-150 I looked at rebuilds engines as a hobby, and I considered him to be an expert (I'm not) and thus valued his opinion. The concern was indeed about the turbocharger and the stress it puts on the engine.

I was reluctant to post that story because I haven't been keeping up with automotive technology, so my concerns might be misplaced. The F-150 owner and I are about the same age, and we both remember problems with turbocharged engines a generation ago. So our concerns are probably influenced by that memory, sort of like Americans' reluctance to buy cars with diesel engines today due to the problems with diesel cars in the 1970s. Modern technology may have obviated these concerns in both cases.

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Scuba55

I think you make some very good points here. I often think about getting a 3/4 ton diesel, but really it would be a massive overkill, not to mention the extremely costly...

For me, I am looking forward to finally getting rid of mine, something I have driven for 25 years now.

[Brian B-P]

All good input, Mike

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

The owner of the F-150 I looked at rebuilds engines as a hobby, and I considered him to be an expert (I'm not) and thus valued his opinion. The concern was indeed about the turbocharger and the stress it puts on the engine.

That makes sense, but I think it's important to note the difference between sticking a turbo on an engine and overstressing it with forces for which is was not designed, and designing an engine for forced induction. For instance, an old engine with a tacked-on aftermarket turbo might have destroyed the engine's bearings, while an engine designed for purpose would have larger bearings with suitable lubricating oil flow and no issues. Whether by turbocharging or other methods, any increase in an engine's power output means more cooling capacity is required, which is no problem unless the builder fails to provide it.

Unless the details of the EcoBoost and of the non-turbocharged equivalent (the Duratec 35 or Cyclone, which is a current product built alongside the EcoBoost 3.5 and 2.7) are compared, I think the turbocharging is only a factor that should be investigated, rather than a cause for actual concern.

One of the tips for building a high-performance non-turbo Toyota 4A-GE engine (the four-cylinder from a Corolla GT-S or MR2 of the 1980's, and Formula Atlantic racing) was to get at least the crankshaft from the supercharged 4A-GZE version, because it was designed by Toyota to reliably withstand the stress of forced induction.

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

... we both remember problems with turbocharged engines a generation ago. So our concerns are probably influenced by that memory, sort of like Americans' reluctance to buy cars with diesel engines today due to the problems with diesel cars in the 1970s. Modern technology may have obviated these concerns in both cases.

I share that bias, and I don't think that's so bad. Although technology has improved, and proper design always would have addressed most issues even with the old technology, I think there's still some validity to the concerns. Turbochargers run bearings at very high speed and under challenging thermal conditions, so they are a demanding lubrication challenge and thus a potential durability issue. They also add heat to the engine compartment (which can cause problems for other systems) and increase crowding in the compartment (interfering with cooling and potential compromising the design of other components).

[Birken]

I have driven my new Ram 3.0 Ecodiesel for about 4 months now. I have been getting between 20 and 25mpg (12 to 9L/100km) depending on terrain. I just picked up my 5.0 trailer 2 weeks ago, and have logged about 1650 miles (2650km) from North Vancouver to Southern California. For this leg of our trip I have experienced fuel mileage while towing of between 14 and 19 mpg (17 and 13L/100 km). I am extremely pleased with the fuel economy, but even more impressed with the towing characteristics of the engine and 8 speed transmission. It shifts seamlessly and holds steady at 3000rpms towing up a steep highway grade and maintains speeds of 55-60mph and no hesitations. As well with descending steep grades, the transmission shifts down very smoothly and holds the vehicle without excessive breaking.
I am not concerned with the durability of this engine. It was built by VM Vitori of Italy starting 5 years ago. It is also used in 2 models of Maseratis. This engine company is now 100% owned by Fiat/Chrysler, but up until a few years ago, it was 50% owned by GM. In fact the new Chevy Colorado diesel originally sold in Thailand and Brazil was made by VM Motori while part of GM. I suspect tha the one currently being sold in N.America is the same with some modifications for the local market.
On another note, the DEF (Pig piss urea) tank holds 8 gallons. It seems to be using about 1 gal/1000miles. I have now used 6 gals over my 6000 miles on the vehicle . I just purchased two 2 1/2 gallon bottles at NAPA for $8.99 US. Seemed reasonable to me as this was my first purchase of DEF since buying the truck.
We have another 2 weeks on the road back home, so will enjoy our new truck and Escape.

[Jim Bennett]

How much DEF gets used varies greatly depending upon driving. I have never measured the consumption, but I do a lot of city driving a lot of the time, and it gets consumed way faster in this situation, than when mostly driving on the highway.

[tractors1]

The Dodge RAM (2013 and newer) with the Cummins diesel is the only brand/engine combo that will not de-tune the engine output or just plain not start if you run out of DEF. Still get a blinky dash light though, I think.

[cpaharley2008]

Thanks for the update Bob, good news for other Ram owners.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Birken

I have driven my new Ram 3.0 Ecodiesel for about 4 months now. I have been getting between 20 and 25mpg (12 to 9L/100km) depending on terrain.
...
For this leg of our trip I have experienced fuel mileage while towing of between 14 and 19 mpg (17 and 13L/100 km). I am extremely pleased with the fuel economy...

On another note, the DEF (Pig piss urea) tank holds 8 gallons. It seems to be using about 1 gal/1000miles. I have now used 6 gals over my 6000 miles on the vehicle .

Picking 20 mpg of diesel as an average, or 50 gallons per 1000 miles, 1 gallon of DEF per thousand miles is that one part DEF to 50 parts fuel consumption that Cummins said to expect. Although the engine is VM Motori - not a Cummins - this seems to be confirmation that is is a reasonable overall expectation.

This Ram 1500 is getting a bit better fuel economy non-towing, and not much worse towing, than my similarly sized minivan and significantly smaller trailer. I'd be pleased with that, too.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by tractors1

The Dodge RAM (2013 and newer) with the Cummins diesel is the only brand/engine combo that will not de-tune the engine output or just plain not start if you run out of DEF. Still get a blinky dash light though, I think.

Good to know... and ironic, given that at least the Ram EcoDiesel setup for DEF is trivial to use (based on what I read in the owner's manual): it's hard to imagine how one would ever run out, when you can fill it with DEF from many stores in any city, with no tools or special procedures. I can see a BMW owner being stranded somewhere waiting for a suitably gifted Bavarian to wave an expensive magic wand over an X5 (and insert the proprietary BMW DEF cartridge), but this shouldn't be an issue for a Ram 1500 driver.