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Old 08-25-2018, 03:55 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
RV101(Mark Polk) asked Toyota the same question while trying to help an owner who was having problems. The trailer in question is heavier than an Escape 21, yet within the specs.

https://rvingwithmarkpolk.com/2016/0...ng-questioned/

That story includes this:
Quote:
He said while driving on a level highway the front tires lifted off the ground...
To lift the front of a Higlander off the ground by pushing down on the hitch ball, the tongue weight would have to be about 6,000 pounds. The statement is obviously ridiculous and makes any statement by this owner suspect.
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Old 08-25-2018, 03:59 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Mike G View Post
An advertised dry weight of 468 lbs is almost certain to be in excess of 550, and could be 700 lbs or higher, once the owner added LP, battery, water, and gear. Toyota is correct, without the ability to check the actual trailer, nothing can be accurately resolved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tam2004 View Post
Since our Escape 19 has a rated 256 pound hitch weight - that should be well within the 500 pound 2018 Highlander - correct?
Yes, the Escape 19' has much lower tongue weight than the unrelated trailer which stars in this story from Mark Polk. Actual tongue weight varies, but is unlikely to exceed 500 pounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tam2004 View Post
I thought the confusion was that the Highlander is not wired for a trailer brake and we have to add it. I guess Toyota wants us to make our own decisions?
Yes, you need to equip the vehicle properly. They tell you what is required; you decide how to meet those requirements.
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Old 08-25-2018, 03:59 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
That story includes this:

To lift the front of a Higlander off the ground by pushing down on the hitch ball, the tongue weight would have to be about 6,000 pounds. The statement is obviously ridiculous and makes any statement by this owner suspect.
Do you think the quote from The Blue Ox WDH guy was made up?
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Old 08-25-2018, 04:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
The one thing that sticks out to me is the fact that the 4Runner has less tow capacity (4800) than a Highlander yet has a 7-Pin connector vs. a four pin...
Most vehicles - of any brand - sharing a platform with passenger cars and multipurpose vehicles do not have factory pre-wiring for a brake controller (or trailer battery charge line, or 7-way connector). The Toyota Highlander is an example of this.

Most vehicles - of any brand - sharing a platform with light trucks do (at least optionally) have factory pre-wiring for a brake controller, trailer battery charge line, and 4-way connector. The Toyota 4Runner is an example of this.

There's nothing special about Toyota here. The frustration is widespread throughout the industry.
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Old 08-25-2018, 04:07 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
Do you think the quote from The Blue Ox WDH guy was made up?
No. I think that the front of the vehicle was riding visibly higher than the unloaded condition, and with the reduced traction it was possible to spin the tires (a ton of load for traction on the drive tires, and over four tons of vehicle to pull)... but the tires were nowhere near off of the ground, and still supported about a ton of the vehicle's weight.

Wild exaggeration, incompatible with physical reality, is fatal to the credibility of the person telling the story.

The version attributed to a Blue Ox representative does not make this wild claim. It does say that the engine ran at high speed (which is exactly what you should expect of an automatic transmission shifting as appropriate for the requested power)... but it does not include what speed corresponded to "revving high". I'll note that some members of this forum think that 3,000 rpm is "revving too high"... in a vehicle with a 6500 rpm redline, 5800 rpm maximum power speed, and about 3500 maximum torque speed. It also states without any foundation that the vehicle "would burn the transmission or engine up". Just a reminder: Blue Ox does not design, build, or modify engines or transmissions.
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Old 08-25-2018, 04:19 PM   #26
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Mark Polk says that he couldn't get answers, but look at some of the questions:
Quote:
1) Is there a reason the Highlander towing package does not include a 7-pin trailer plug wiring? A vehicle with this tow capacity requires electric brakes and should be equipped with the proper trailer plug.
No, there is no requirement for electric brakes. If the trailer has surge brakes, no electric brakes are required. Polk should know that, if he really has any towing expertise.

Quote:
2) There are several models of the Highlander available and I noticed the maximum trailer tongue load on these models ranged from 150 pounds to 500 pounds, but I did not see any upgrades in the suspension or tires in the towing package to account for the higher tongue load rating. It basically looks like the tongue load rating is simply 10 percent of the towing capacity assigned to the various models, is this correct?
A reasonable question, but would we expect any manufacturer to answer a question about how a rating is established?

Also, Polk should know that towing packages generally do not include either suspension or tire changes. He should realize that even 500 pounds of hitch weight could be handled by the base suspension, because it is a fraction of the vehicle's payload. He could easily check the Highlander's tires and see that the two rear tires on even the base 2WD model (245/60R18, load index 104 or 105) have sufficient load capacity to support nearly the entire weight of the vehicle - the tires are obviously not the limiting factor and there is no reason to increase their capacity to increase towing capacity to 5000 pounds.

Quote:
5) Is there any way possible I could see the SAE J2807 results for the 2015 Highlander models?
Obviously not. Has anyone ever seen any test data for any internal test conducted by any manufacturer for any aspect of the vehicle? Of course not. How was a Toyota rep supposed to politely say "your question is ridiculous"?
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Old 08-25-2018, 04:19 PM   #27
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On a somewhat related note, the "all new" 2019 Subaru Forester is listed as coming standard with their "Trailer Stability Assist (TSA)" technology. Makes one think that with its new global platform unibody frame, its upgraded 2.5L engine, and their Trailer Stability Assist technology as standard equipment, perhaps Subaru has upped it's towing capacity. But after scouring websites and forums, and e-mailing Subaru (with no reply), I still have no clue what the towing capacity of the 2019 Forester is, and it's due out in October (or November on some sites).
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Old 08-25-2018, 04:42 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
Could be- that was my thought, however in checking 2015 Flagstaff on NADA Guides I see Base Weight of 4051 and hitch weight of 455. That still doesn't take away from the important questions Mark Polk asked of Toyota that were ignored. To be fair I would expect the same no response from probably every auto mfg. The one thing that sticks out to me is the fact that the 4Runner has less tow capacity (4800) than a Highlander yet has a 7-Pin connector vs. a four pin you would expect to tow a rental trailer to the trash dump.
Thanks for the info on the 4-runner being wired. It just is flat out wrong that Toyota has a pay for a TOW PACKAGE and then not give us that extra wire for the brake controller. My husband actually spotted the lack of correct pins when in Toyota in Bend and the salesman said it was just a matter of getting a plug to put in it. Wrong. We all have to pay for it to get wired.
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Old 08-25-2018, 04:43 PM   #29
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What is silly is that Toyota made us all add the wiring for a brake controller after we have paid Toyota for a hauling system for 5000 pounds. So refuse to pay them and call around to the trailer sites.
When you say that you paid Toyota for a "hauling system", what were you told this included? The Toyota web site (at least now, and every other time that I have checked) explicitly lists the content of all towing-related packages. The list doesn't include a 7-way connector, a trailer brake controller, or brake controller wiring.

Original-equipment (Toyota in this case) accessories are expensive, and you can certainly choose to purchase aftermarket instead, but to choose, order, and take the OEM accessory then refuse to pay for it seems unreasonable to me.

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Originally Posted by Tam2004 View Post
I am just annoyed that Toyota still makes us wire for the brake controller as if all we are going to pull is a boat.
You seem to be assuming that only a boat trailer would not have electric brakes. Some boat trailers do have electric brakes, and many other trailers have non-electric brakes. Surge brakes are available for any light trailer (stuff weighing only a few tons) and common on rental cargo trailers.... and yes, very common on boat trailers.

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We had to wire our 2004 Highlander, but thought when we bought the tow package on the new car that it would be there! BAD BAD.
Why did you expect a difference?
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Old 08-25-2018, 04:45 PM   #30
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My husband actually spotted the lack of correct pins when in Toyota in Bend and the salesman said it was just a matter of getting a plug to put in it. Wrong. We all have to pay for it to get wired.
It appears that your issue is with the salesman, not the manufacturer of the vehicle.
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Old 08-25-2018, 05:01 PM   #31
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It appears that your issue is with the salesman, not the manufacturer of the vehicle.
Brian - you are a harsh judge. Yes, we didn't know enough to read and understand what the Toyota tow package included. I stand convicted. Yes, the salesman fooled us. What part of this actually causes you to defend putting a proper pin configuration on the Toyota 4-Runner but not on the Toyota Highlander when the Highlander is rated to pull more weight than the 4-Runner? I agree I was not fully informed. I do not agree that the "buyer beware" principal applies in this case. or should ever apply for anyone. I think putting an after-market wire in for a pin is not as good as it could be if it were part of a manufacturing process. I am surprised you come back like you do for those of us who are still learning. I do not change my mind. Toyota is silly to not give us that wire and the proper pins. It does include the fuses so we can do an aftermarket properly. I bet they start doing it soon.
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Old 08-25-2018, 05:45 PM   #32
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Sorry you’re having such a time with the Toyota. I can’t blame you for being frustrated but the list of what comes with the tow package is available before you put the money down. Once you get all set up and get camping, hopefully these challenges will be just a memory.
A fellow named Boge Johnson was the flag man at the Knoxville Iowa Speedway in Marion County Iowa. I knew him pretty well and he was often known to say “ It costs money to go racing.” There are no pockets on caskets and the hearse don’t stop to make a withdrawal.
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Old 08-25-2018, 06:04 PM   #33
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There are other vehicle manufacturers to choose from
This should be a heads up for the next time you buy a vehicle
My vehicle came from the factory with a 4 & 7 receptacle , a charge wire , a 2” receiver hitch , a transmission & 0il cooler, larger alternator and an integrated brake controller .as part of the dealers tow package
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Old 08-25-2018, 06:45 PM   #34
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Yes, the salesman fooled us.
That's all I meant by saying that your problem is with the salesman. He is the source of misinformation, not Toyota.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tam2004 View Post
What part of this actually causes you to defend putting a proper pin configuration on the Toyota 4-Runner but not on the Toyota Highlander when the Highlander is rated to pull more weight than the 4-Runner?
I didn't defend anything - I just explained that
  • this is normal practice (not just at Toyota)
  • it is typical of this type of vehicle, and not of an alternate type of vehicle (helps people to know what to expect)
  • it does not invalidate the towing capacity specified for the vehicle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tam2004 View Post
I agree I was not fully informed. I do not agree that the "buyer beware" principal applies in this case. or should ever apply for anyone. I think putting an after-market wire in for a pin is not as good as it could be if it were part of a manufacturing process. I am surprised you come back like you do for those of us who are still learning. I do not change my mind. Toyota is silly to not give us that wire and the proper pins. It does include the fuses so we can do an aftermarket properly. I bet they start doing it soon.
I was seriously asking what was expected. I have seen the illustrations on the website (with a four-pin connector and no mention of trailer brakes), I know that the sample vehicles in the showroom will not have a 7-pin connector, and wanted to know how anyone would get the wrong impression of what they were buying.

A buyer should never be misinformed, but there doesn't appear to be any misinformation from Toyota (the manufacturer, not the dealer's staff) in this case. The buyer of anything is always responsible for choosing the right product and using it correctly, based on the information supplied by the manufacturer.

I agree that OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer designed and produced) wiring would be preferable.

Sure, Toyota seems "silly" to someone who doesn't understand enough of the situation, including the fact that the vast majority of Highlander owners never tow anything. But by the same logic, every auto manufacturer is silly in the same way. My motorhome is a ten-ton vehicle on a truck chassis which can tow 5,000 pounds, but it came with only a 4-pin, and no provisions at all for a trailer brake controller or 7-pin wiring; does that make Ford incompetent, or just silly?

It's fine to be new to a subject, and understandable to be upset when things do not go as well as expected. Attacking a company and declaring that you will not pay for a purchased product, based on what you know to be inadequate information, seems unreasonable to me. Real information seems more helpful to me than joining your rant.

This situation has been this way for at least a decade, probably two, and seems unlikely to me to change any time soon. I hope that I am mistaken.
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Old 08-25-2018, 06:50 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by steve dunham View Post
There are other vehicle manufacturers to choose from
This should be a heads up for the next time you buy a vehicle
My vehicle came from the factory with a 4 & 7 receptacle , a charge wire , a 2” receiver hitch , a transmission & 0il cooler, larger alternator and an integrated brake controller .as part of the dealers tow package
Is it that manufacturer's equivalent to the Highlander? I don't think so.
I think your truck is equivalent to a Toyota Tundra, which is equipped similarly to your truck.

There are other manufacturers, and they're all about the same.

It is a good heads-up for the next purchase, because it shows the importance of understanding what you are getting, and what type of vehicle will be equipped most appropriately.
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Old 08-27-2018, 05:03 PM   #36
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The diode fix

Hi Kstock11,
Just to be clear, the diode solution is what Tekonsha is advising installers. They will even send your installer a harness with the diode already in place.
The diode solution does not block the brake lights from coming on except when you are braking by using the override slider and not touching the brake pedal at all. Most likely, the only time you are going to do that is when calibrating, the is, when setting the gain using the 25-mph skid test. For myself, I always put the warning flashers on when I do that, and do it only where and when there will probably be no one else around.

It's also possible that you will use the override slider while driving, say to prevent the trailer from fishtailing while descending a grade with a curve. In that case, you could very lightly depress the brake pedal to turn on the brake lights without actually braking. The amount of trailing braking you would apply via the override would be very small; you would not be trying to stop the trailer but rather just giving it a little course correction; the driver behind you is therefor not going to be surprised by a sudden deceleration, so the brake lights would not really be needed then anyway. (I have actually never used the override slider in that way; I just set the Boost on the controller to 1 for descending hills at highway speed.)

For the technically minded: In normal operation, the brake controller monitors the brake light circuit so it knows when the vehicle is braking, in order to coordinate trailer braking with vehicle braking. When you are using override (without also giving the brake pedal a touch at the same time), the controller energizes the brake light circuit. Normally the vehicle doesn't care, but the Highlander thinks that something is wrong because it's monitoring that circuit also and doesn't know why it finds it energized. The diode blocks the controller from energizing the circuit but does not interfere with the controller's ability to monitor the circuit.

Note that Toyota does not sell their own controller for the Highlander and does not even provide a connection block for "plug and play" (as, for example, you get with the Honda Ridgeline). So it's not surprising, though regrettable, that the people who programmed the Highlander safety systems were clueless about trailer brake controllers.
We have been very happy towing our 17A with our 2018 Highlander. Getting the brake controller problem resolved was just a minor bump in the road. We've done two trips in the mountains now of about 800 miles each.
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Old 08-27-2018, 06:16 PM   #37
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The Ford Flex (4500 pound rating) and the Explorer (5000 pound rating) come with the 7 pin wiring when you order the factory tow package. Add Ecoboost and you then have lots of torque.
Been towing our 19 with the 4 Runner now for two years but at times I miss the Flex.
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Old 08-27-2018, 07:18 PM   #38
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I am not sure that Tekonsha will send you a harness.

They told me they will mail me one about 3 weeks back. I did not see one yet.

When I call them no one picks up the phone, I even wrote to them on their contact page about this, no reply yet.

Really, it is a shame . I will be going to a Hitch place to get a Diode installed.
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Old 08-27-2018, 10:43 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by disneydoc View Post
I am not sure that Tekonsha will send you a harness.

They told me they will mail me one about 3 weeks back. I did not see one yet.

When I call them no one picks up the phone, I even wrote to them on their contact page about this, no reply yet.

Really, it is a shame . I will be going to a Hitch place to get a Diode installed.
Sorry to hear that Tekonsha has dropped the ball.
My installer talked to Tekonsha in April, 2018. Phone number used was 888-521-0519. Take option 4, then option 2, spoke to "Terrence". Case number was 617 410.
I heard about the harness offer on another forum, just recently. My installer purchased the one-way diode himself and installed it on the Red (Stoplight) wire going to (and from) the Tekonsha.
This was for a Prodigy P2. Probably the same for other Prodigy models, such as the P3.
Hope this helps.
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:27 PM   #40
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This has been an interesting thread. My take may be controversial, but here goes: I think if Toyota says a vehicle can tow 5000 lbs, then they also know that such a trailer would need electric brakes and a brake controller. In my humble opinion it's nonsensical to not offer a 7-pin and brake controller wiring in such a case.

Yes, a prospective owner needs to know what is included and what is not, I get that. But Toyota's offering here is illogical.
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