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Old 03-16-2020, 11:28 AM   #21
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Thanks Brian as I was confused with how it was written. Quoting George below with edits on terminology:

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Johnson View Post
I think the key here is knowing the limits of both your vehicle and your driving skills, and then staying within them. I've worked in difficult terrain all my career, and we used to say that 4WD is a great way for getting more stuck than you ever can with 2WD.

If you are going to knowingly press the limits of your vehicle or your skill, you really need a lot of experience before taking that chance. If you don't have a lot of experience in difficult situations, you can usually get out of the situation if you become aware of it early enough by using 4WD, locking axles, etc. before you get in too deep. It's best not to press the limits and have some backup in the form of 4WD, and perhaps a more experienced companion traveling with you.

I'd say 4WD would be a worth while comfort if you intend to get off the paved roads or travel in snowy conditions.
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Old 03-16-2020, 11:28 AM   #22
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I want an AWD F150 all electric, with a minimum 400 mile range while towing 10K, and under 4 hrs recharge.

Get crackin', Ford. I have cash ready.
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Old 03-16-2020, 12:16 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by rbryan4 View Post
I want an AWD F150 all electric, with a minimum 400 mile range while towing 10K, and under 4 hrs recharge.

Pony up, Ford. I have cash ready.
Aside from the electric vehicle issue, this also raises the question of what "AWD" means. It doesn't fundamentally mean anything different (for the case of a four-wheeled vehicle) from "4WD" or "4X4", but it is usually interpreted to mean that all four wheels are driven all of the time, or at least whenever an automated system determines that they should be driven.

Base pickups and traditional SUVs have part-time 4WD systems, meaning that only one axle (normally the rear) is driving all of the time, and the other one (so, normally the front) only drives when the driver shifts into the 4WD mode... and that can't be done on dry pavement because there is no provision to allow different front and rear wheel speeds, so shafts wind up and the system binds. That means that part-time 4WD is useless until you are on a slippery surface and turn it on; that's good for getting out of a muddy campsite or up a steep gravel slope, but does no good at all for slippery patches on the highway.

If I were to pay for 4WD and put up with the higher maintenance cost, higher weight, and lower efficiency, I would insist on a full-time system. For example, like most pickups a base Ford F-150 4X4 just has a crude part-time system, but in higher trim levels have "automatic 4WD", indicated by the availability of a "4X4 Auto" mode selection. Even the automatic 4WD still doesn't use the front tires until the rear tires slip, so it's not as capable on-road as typical modern AWD systems in cars and SUVs.

Modern electric AWD vehicles have full-time 4WD, using separate motors for the front and rear axles.
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Old 03-16-2020, 03:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Base pickups and traditional SUVs have part-time 4WD systems, meaning that only one axle (normally the rear) is driving all of the time, and the other one (so, normally the front) only drives when the driver shifts into the 4WD mode... and that can't be done on dry pavement because there is no provision to allow different front and rear wheel speeds, so shafts wind up and the system binds. That means that part-time 4WD is useless until you are on a slippery surface and turn it on; that's good for getting out of a muddy campsite or up a steep gravel slope, but does no good at all for slippery patches on the highway.

If I were to pay for 4WD and put up with the higher maintenance cost, higher weight, and lower efficiency, I would insist on a full-time system. For example, like most pickups a base Ford F-150 4X4 just has a crude part-time system, but in higher trim levels have "automatic 4WD", indicated by the availability of a "4X4 Auto" mode selection. Even the automatic 4WD still doesn't use the front tires until the rear tires slip, so it's not as capable on-road as typical modern AWD systems in cars and SUVs.
Brian: It appears my 4th gen Toyota 4Runner is among a rare group of vehicles that used a manually lockable (via pushbutton) Torsen center differential. I see Lexus GX, Land Rover Range Rover L322, Toyota Sequoia amongst the others. I can put into "H4" with differential unlocked and it operates as AWD with power split front and rear. I can then lock the differential for a traditional 4WD high or low. It works very nicely and I love the flexibility of the system.
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Old 03-16-2020, 04:15 PM   #25
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It appears my 4th gen Toyota 4Runner is among a rare group of vehicles that used a manually lockable (via pushbutton) Torsen center differential. I see Lexus GX, Land Rover Range Rover L322, Toyota Sequoia amongst the others. I can put into "H4" with differential unlocked and it operates as AWD with power split front and rear. I can then lock the differential for a traditional 4WD high or low. It works very nicely and I love the flexibility of the system.
Yes, the premium conventional Toyota SUVs sold in North America are well-equipped, and Toyota doesn't sell a basic "traditional" (body-on-frame, truck-like) SUV; the cheapest 4Runner is $10K more than a Highlander. At the same time, a Tacoma or Tundra has only a part-time 4WD system, at least in the standard trim. That sophisticated transfer case in the 4Runner doesn't come in the Tacoma which shares some other mechanical components, and the one in the Sequoia doesn't normally (if at all) come in the Tundra built on the same platform with the same engine and transmission.

A friend of mine has a 2010 Jeep Liberty, and I drove it recently. I was a bit surprised to learn that, like all Liberties except a few special editions, it has only a part-time 4WD system called Command-Trac (and no locking differentials), even though Jeep has had full-time 4WD systems (such as Select-Trac) for several decades, and even though this model is intended entirely for on-road use. It's rated to tow a 5,000 pound trailer, but it's not very good for it. Buyers really need to check carefully to see what they are getting, when choosing 4WD, to get the desired functionality.
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Old 03-16-2020, 06:20 PM   #26
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I'll vote yes on the 4WD tow vehicle (we have a 2017 Toyota Tacoma). There have been a couple of times I was REALLY glad for the 4WD (coming down from Mesa Verde in 6+" of fresh snow). Besides, think of all the fun you can have after you've parked your Escape!
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Old 03-16-2020, 09:40 PM   #27
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Desire

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Originally Posted by rbryan4 View Post
I want an AWD F150 all electric, with a minimum 400 mile range while towing 10K, and under 4 hrs recharge.

Get crackin', Ford. I have cash ready.
I had to smile when I read your vehicle desire. I’d come up with some dream manifesto when I was a kid and share it with my dad. He would think it over for a minute and then say “People in Hell want ice water too. That shut me up till the next time.
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Old 03-16-2020, 09:53 PM   #28
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I had to smile when I read your vehicle desire. I’d come up with some dream manifesto when I was a kid and share it with my dad. He would think it over for a minute and then say “People in Hell want ice water too. That shut me up till the next time.

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Old 03-17-2020, 08:33 AM   #29
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We spent a couple of months in the South West area early this year. We mostly boondock off the beaten path. On the north side of Roosevelt Lake in AZ on forest rd 60 the views are epic.
When it rains the roads are terrifying. We spent 40+ miles in 4wd, truck speedo showing 20 mph, GPS speed 18. we would have had to stay put for more than a couple of days without 4wd
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Old 03-25-2020, 12:56 PM   #30
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Another reason we have 4WD besides all of the above mentioned reasons are, we don't take our 19 on rough roads but can leave it at the campsite and do the rougher roads on days trips without the trailer and see the cool back country things. Plus I do volunteer work with an outfit that hauls kayak and canoe trailers to river cleanups and during high rains and flooding I use my truck to help them move their trailers. Mud, snow whatever.
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Old 03-25-2020, 02:04 PM   #31
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Infiniti QX80 4WD

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Originally Posted by OldLuke View Post
I'm looking for a tow vehicle. I think I should get four wheel drive. I'll be boondocking half of the time, but not the really wild off road stuff. Decent dirt road access. A couple of friends disagree. What do you think?
We enjoy towing our 19' with our Infiniti QX80, which has automatic 4WD. We also can tow our 19' with our Mercedes ML350 diesel and Mercedes 2500HD Sprinter van.

All three vehicles work well, but we usually tow with QX80 because of comfort. We have not needed to use 4WD-Low or 4WD-High for towing - just leave it on auto. We do turn on the QX80 "tow mode".

The 4WD downsides are weight, initial cost, and maintenance. 4WD maintenance gets pricey.

If maintenance and initial costs are not issues, get the vehicle you most enjoy, has the most safety features, and that can easily handle the towing weight. QX80 tows 8500 lbs with 850 on hitch.

73/gus
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Old 03-25-2020, 03:26 PM   #32
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Here the main reasons I will always purchase 4wd with low range for a pickup:

1. improved traction, even in the rain
2. gearing down on steep gravel grades means that both front and rear tires are providing friction
3. more stable on gravel roads when applying torque
4. low range provides additional resistance for gearing down on steep gravel grades
5. better resale
6. less wheel spin on gravel results in less rocks flying at the trailer

..and with regard to electric 4wd, it appears that Brian and I are sharing the same dream.
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Old 03-25-2020, 05:20 PM   #33
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I think having low range is helpful for backing. It's much easier to make smooth movements.
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Old 03-25-2020, 09:54 PM   #34
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My 2008 Tacoma 4x4 was huge fun exploring dirt roads in places like Death Valley. Did a darn good job towing our Casita 16, too, but i felt it was a bit too little for the escape 21....

...so now I have a F250 diesel 4x4. hahahahaha. amazingly competent on dirt roads, better than I'd hoped, I was afraid the weight would make it unweildy. it *is* kinda huge. being an extended cab longbed, its almost 21' feet overall.
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Old 03-26-2020, 04:11 PM   #35
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After towing in winter (skidoo), towing a boat, a camping trailler for the last 13 year, and owning 5 truck in the last 30+ year.

I have a truck because it is more practical for me. I also do fishing and hunt, My last 4 truck were 4x4 but only the first and my last (present) have a transfer case. My last two truck also have locking rear diff.

I use all my vehicle with my head. I don't want to spend money because they break while in a mud hole or rough terrain. They do work hard but aint gonna be broken in the process.

With a 4x4, the more confidence you have will mostly get you stuck farther or deeper one day. A friends truck or a winch is a must that day.

Driving in winter with a regular 4x4 is more of a concern than with an all wheel drive vehicle. 4x4 does not make you stop faster. 4x4 does not make you in control on ice in a turn. In some situation, the added traction is a plus, but above 30 mph it is really and mostly unnecessary.

From my experience, 4x4 or AWD is most usefull under 30 mph.

I do tow my camping trailler in winter condition.

For me the only reason that I have a 4x4 is for the added traction at low speed. An AWD truck would have please me. For me my 2007 Honda Ridgeline was the best truck I had. If the new Ridgeline had a diesel option it would have been my present truck since my GMC Canyon has about the same ground clearance.

If it was for driving without never encounter snow condition I would really consider a regular truck with a real locker diff for added traction.
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