Honda Ridgeline Revival

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

Great. It has an audio system in the truck bed.
Can it tow anything?
Are they selling a truck?

The audio system is for "tailgaters", and although many of us would consider it silly, there are many silly features available in all types of vehicle, especially in the fanciest trim levels. I won't list any that I consider silly, because I'm sure some member of the forum would like that feature and be offended. Fortunately, the truck bed audio system does not work while driving.

Yes, it can tow, enough for any Escape (except the fifth-wheels, due to box length) - that's why it is being discussed here, and why some Escape owners have the first generation Ridgeline. Honda has not been promoting the towing capacity in what I have seen so far, but it is months from retail availability.
The payload of a Ridgeline is similar to other pickup trucks of its size and engine size.

So, what is not "truck" about this vehicle? Is it not crude enough?

[gbaglo]

In the link, Honda chooses to point out all the fluffy stuff in the new Ridgeline and nothing that makes a truck useful. That was my point. It's like GM selling Wifi instead of vehicles.

[Brian B-P]

I think accessible cargo space is useful (and three of the four features promoted on that Honda website are about cargo access), but I agree that the audio system is fluff just as is the GM WiFi hotspot... which doesn't make either a Ridgeline or a Silverado any less of a truck. I just hope people don't use that audio system in campgrounds!

Originally Posted by dfandrews

The sound system has a "sampled-sounds" module, with Anderson hitch noises programmed in, so it sounds to all the world like it's towing.

That raises all sorts of possibilities - how about a smoke generator to make people think it's a diesel that some moron has taken to a "tuner"?

[ATHiker]

I owned a Ridgeline prior to acquiring my Toyota Tundra. The Ridgeline had more payload capacity than the Tundra.

[gbaglo]

I'm holding out for a Permafrost.

[Brian B-P]

ConsumerReports makes an interesting claim in their review (2017 Honda Ridgeline Pickup Truck Looks Conventional but Still Innovative):

Honda also claims Ridgeline will outpace traditional midsized trucks in towing capacity and cargo hauling. (The original was limited to 5,000-lbs. tow capacity; the new one will need to pull more than 7,000-lbs. to make good on the boast.)

I see the logic, but a 7000-pound tow rating in a Ridgeline seems unlikely, and apparently only ConsumerReports heard someone from Honda says this...

Here's the Car and Driver's take on this subject, from 2017 Honda Ridgeline: The Crossover of Pickups Returns

Honda says it is still finalizing the Ridgeline's towing and payload ratings, revealing only that maximum payload is "approaching 1600 pounds" and that it will tow more than the Pilot, which is rated to pull as much as 3500 pounds with front-wheel drive and 5000 pounds in AWD form; the previous Ridgeline could tow 5000 pounds.

With the same powertrain as the Pilot, 5000 pounds seems reasonable, and sufficient for any conventional (not fifth-wheel) Escape, although a heavily loaded 21 Foot may not leave much cargo or passenger capacity in the Ridgeline. The rating would only need to be marginally more than 5000 pounds to be "more than the Pilot"... but who knows, maybe it will be significantly higher. The structurally and mechanically similar VW Touareg is rated for 7700 pounds, but with hitch weight limited to something like 700 pounds.

[bisonbill]

There's an administrator in the Ridgeline forum who has posted some pictures he took of the truck, including this one showing a 5,000 lb towing limit and 500 lb tongue weight (the old Ridgeline was at 5,000 towing and 600 tongue). Even though Honda hasn't announce a towing limit, the sticker is on the back of the truck at the Detroit auto show.

5,000 lbs is tight for a 21.

[bisonbill]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

I'm holding out for a Permafrost.

Due to global warming, the Permafrost has been cancelled. The next model will be the Swamp.

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

... The structurally and mechanically similar VW Touareg is rated for 7700 pounds, but with hitch weight limited to something like 700 pounds.

And you believe VW on that one Reminds me that we saw a couple with a Touareg in Big Sur with a 25' Airstream. They were very proud of their composting toilet I remember. Then we saw them coincidentally driving home on the 101 near King City. They were nose up on the tug and looked like deer in headlights If it sounds too good to be true....

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

And you believe VW on that one Reminds me that we saw a couple with a Touareg in Big Sur with a 25' Airstream. They were very proud of their composting toilet I remember. Then we saw them coincidentally driving home on the 101 near King City. They were nose up on the tug and looked like deer in headlights If it sounds too good to be true....

Yes, I believe the VW tow rating, but I also believe that owners violate it.

My guess is that the Airstream owners chose to ignore the hitch weight and axle load ratings, and had their Touareg overloaded - perhaps in total (gross combined) weight, but likely with too much tongue weight, cargo, and passenger load. I doubt there's a 7700 pound Airstream out there with only 8% of its weight on the tongue.

I think it's unlikely that Honda would set a trailer weight rating to more than ten times the hitch weight limit, because people like these VW owners will not read all of the limits and follow them; they will likely assume, like most other manufacturers selling in North America that owners will only give the ratings a cursory glance.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by bisonbill

There's an administrator in the Ridgeline forum who has posted some pictures he took of the truck, including this one showing a 5,000 lb towing limit and 500 lb tongue weight (the old Ridgeline was at 5,000 towing and 600 tongue). Even though Honda hasn't announce a towing limit, the sticker is on the back of the truck at the Detroit auto show.

Direct link: Next-Generation Ridgeline thoughts and opinions - post #726.

Usually the limit label is on the hitch (and may only apply to the hitch), but this is on the bumper and especially since this is the integrated hitch receiver provided by Honda, it seems likely to be the vehicle's limit as well.

This set of limits doesn't look unreasonable, but does conflict with both articles which I quoted earlier... perhaps one should not believe anything reported to be said at auto shows. Another possibility is that the label on the actual production units may have different values than this pre-production example.

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Yes, I believe the VW tow rating, but I also believe that owners violate it.

My guess is that the Airstream owners chose to ignore the hitch weight and axle load ratings, and had their Touareg overloaded - perhaps in total (gross combined) weight, but likely with too much tongue weight, cargo, and passenger load. I doubt there's a 7700 pound Airstream out there with only 8% of its weight on the tongue.

I think it's unlikely that Honda would set a trailer weight rating to more than ten times the hitch weight limit, because people like these VW owners will not read all of the limits and follow them; they will likely assume, like most other manufacturers selling in North America that owners will only give the ratings a cursory glance.

Check this out: https://ownersmanuals2.com/volkswage...r-towing-38561...... " this vehicle has not been designed to tow a Class III trailer and must never be retrofitted tow, use and that is legal to tow the trailer where you will be driving."

Quote: Volkswagen's literature contradicts itself regarding the Touareg's towing capacity. Volkswagen claims in numerous pieces of literature that the Touareg can tow 7700 pounds, but the owner's manual indicates that the Touareg should only tow Class I or Class II trailers which are a maximum of 2000 and 3500 pounds respectively. It's conceivable that the Class II limit is a function of the hitch, not the vehicle itself(excerpt from touaregfaq.com).

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Check this out: https://ownersmanuals2.com/volkswage...r-towing-38561...... " this vehicle has not been designed to tow a Class III trailer and must never be retrofitted tow, use and that is legal to tow the trailer where you will be driving."

Quote:

(excerpt from touaregfaq.com).

I get a Page not found error from the server for that link. I'll look later for a valid link or a copy in my own records of the Touareg manual... especially since that fragment isn't even a properly constructed sentence, so I suspect a copy-and-paste error.

I suspect that this is yet another example of incompetent people (in this case at Volkswagen) giving out technical advice, and is likely the result of confusing these two terms:
1. Class 3 (or Class III) Hitch

• A hitch as defined by VESC Standard V-5 or SAE Standard J684 with capacity to tow a trailer greater than 3500 pounds, but not more than 5000 pounds.
• The standards also define the vertical, lateral, and longitudinal loads which the hitch must withstand, as well as the testing methods.

2. Weight-Distributing Hitch (WDH)

• A hitch system which applies torque to the coupling between the trailer and towing vehicle to transfer load from the tow vehicle's rear axle to its front axle and to the trailer's axle(s).
• Neither V-5 nor J684 associates WDH use with Class 3, or with any specific class - in fact, neither standard even mentions the idea of a weight-distribution system.

Although most current hitches in North America use a system of a receiver with a square socket mounted on the tow vehicle and a removable square bar carrying the rest of the hitch, the standards don't define sizes or even mention this system at all. There is also a tendency for aftermarket hitches rated in Class 3 and Class 4 to allow the use of WDH, and for hitches rated lower to not allow the use of WDH, but that's a matter of common practice and not any standard. There is also a typical practice of using a 2" receiver for Class 3 and some Class 4, and a 1.25" receiver for Class 1 and Class 2, but that is not entirely consistent and not part of any standard. The end result is that people look at one piece of information - such as the receiver box size or class number - and draw conclusions (such as about WDH use) which are sometimes incorrect.

There's nothing wrong with the Touareg's capacity: it is simply 7700 pounds, weight-carrying only, with a hitch (or tongue) weight rating which varies by year. The problem appears to lie entirely with Volkswagen of America and Volkswagen Canada, which seem unable to clearly communicate.

I noticed yesterday that the touaregfaq.com site contains some surprisingly poor information - the author seems to know very little about towing or the Touareg's towing equipment. All I did was walk into a dealership and look under the back of a Touareg, and I know more about its hitch than the person who wrote this. The one I saw was made by Westfalia (a major European hitch manufacturer) and was clearly labelled for 7700 pounds - it is not limited to Class 2 (or even Class 3).

Anyway, this thread is about the Ridgeline, so I suppose the lesson from the VW example is that when Honda actually builds production 2017 Ridgeline and issues limits and a manual for it, they should be carefully read.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Check this out: https://ownersmanuals2.com/volkswage...r-towing-38561...... " this vehicle has not been designed to tow a Class III trailer and must never be retrofitted tow, use and that is legal to tow the trailer where you will be driving."

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

I get a Page not found error from the server for that link.

After several tries, following the same link on the same computer, I now get a valid response. I guess that server is struggling...

The "Manual Description" on that page is barely in English, so it has presumably been poorly written by someone other than Volkswagen; I consider it irrelevant.

After a couple of clicks the actual 12-page section of the 2015 VW Touareg manual can be downloaded. This looks like legitimate VW content.
It contains a clear statement of a hitch weight limit of 616 pounds (only 8% of the 7716 pound trailer limit) and this warning:

Never install a “weight distributing” or “load equalizing” trailer hitch on your vehicle. The vehicle was not designed for these kinds of trailer hitches. The trailer hitch attachment can fail, causing the trailer to tear loose from the vehicle.

A warning against WDH use is similar to Honda's practice for the previous-generation Pilot - we'll see what the new Ridgeline says. As I was saying earlier, I would not expect Honda to issue limits which result in only 8% hitch weight for the heaviest allowed trailer.

In my previous post, I accepted the previously quoted manual content, and so accused VW of not communicating clearly. While the actual manual content does not contain the transcription error of the earlier quote (which was missing a line of text), it does contain this:

This vehicle has not been designed to tow a Class III trailer and must never be retrofitted to tow a Class III trailer. Always make sure that your vehicle has been designed to tow the trailer you want to use and that is legal to tow the trailer where you will be driving.

As I said, someone who stuck this section in an otherwise very clear and precise manual section apparently doesn't know what "Class III" means. They seem to think it means a WDH hitch (it does not) or that Class III hitches use 2-5/16" balls (they can, but often do not).

I did notice that they forbid the use of ball larger than 51 mm (meaning larger than 2"). The ball size has nothing to do with the forces on the hitch - this is obviously an attempt to keep anyone from towing a trailer with a 2-5/16" ball, which is likely to be too heavy, to have excessive tongue weight, and to be too long and bulky for the Touareg to control. The coupler size doesn't actually matter, but telling owners to tow only trailers with a 2" coupler (such as an Escape) keeps the trailer size down.

The amount of information in this section is astounding. Rather than limit the Touareg to something like 3500 pounds or 5000 pounds (conveniently matched to a hitch class limit) and hope that the worst setup within that weight will be manageable, they have been very specific about configuration (including ball height and distance rearward) and issued a trailer weight limit which is higher, assuming that the entire configuration specification is followed. I like that, but I think it's risky, since most owners will not even read this material, let alone follow it.

Again, Honda is unlikely to go this way, and will presumably finalize the Ridgeline's trailer weight limit at some value with a hitch weight limit of 10% of that trailer weight, and with essentially no other specifications other than possibly something related to WDH use.

[David H]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

After several tries, following the same link on the same computer, I now get a valid response. I guess that server is struggling...

The "Manual Description" on that page is barely in English, so it has presumably been poorly written by someone other than Volkswagen; I consider it irrelevant.

After a couple of clicks the actual 12-page section of the 2015 VW Touareg manual can be downloaded. This looks like legitimate VW content.
It contains a clear statement of a hitch weight limit of 616 pounds (only 8% of the 7716 pound trailer limit) and this warning:

A warning against WDH use is similar to Honda's practice for the previous-generation Pilot - we'll see what the new Ridgeline says. As I was saying earlier, I would not expect Honda to issue limits which result in only 8% hitch weight for the heaviest allowed trailer.

In my previous post, I accepted the previously quoted manual content, and so accused VW of not communicating clearly. While the actual manual content does not contain the transcription error of the earlier quote (which was missing a line of text), it does contain this:

As I said, someone who stuck this section in an otherwise very clear and precise manual section apparently doesn't know what "Class III" means. They seem to think it means a WDH hitch (it does not) or that Class III hitches use 2-5/16" balls (they can, but often do not).

I did notice that they forbid the use of ball larger than 51 mm (meaning larger than 2"). The ball size has nothing to do with the forces on the hitch - this is obviously an attempt to keep anyone from towing a trailer with a 2-5/16" ball, which is likely to be too heavy, to have excessive tongue weight, and to be too long and bulky for the Touareg to control. The coupler size doesn't actually matter, but telling owners to tow only trailers with a 2" coupler (such as an Escape) keeps the trailer size down.

The amount of information in this section is astounding. Rather than limit the Touareg to something like 3500 pounds or 5000 pounds (conveniently matched to a hitch class limit) and hope that the worst setup within that weight will be manageable, they have been very specific about configuration (including ball height and distance rearward) and issued a trailer weight limit which is higher, assuming that the entire configuration specification is followed. I like that, but I think it's risky, since most owners will not even read this material, let alone follow it.

Again, Honda is unlikely to go this way, and will presumably finalize the Ridgeline's trailer weight limit at some value with a hitch weight limit of 10% of that trailer weight, and with essentially no other specifications other than possibly something related to WDH use.

Brian.I own a 2016 VW Touareg and you are correct 7700 lb maximum trailer weight and 616 lb on the tongue are the specified load limits in the owners manual. The 616 lb tongue rating is 8% of the maximum 7700 lb trailer weight rating and is the common practice in Europe. In North America we generally use 10 to 15%. The Touareg shares the same platform as the Audi Q7 and Porsche Cayenne all have the same towing limits. The manual is well written from an engineering point of view and tries to safeguard the owner from foolishly overloading the factory installed hitch and vehicle substructure, while safeguarding the manufactures liability in cases where the owner does not.

For the record I previously owned a 2013 Honda Pilot which is rated at 4500lb trailer and 450 lb on the tongue. The Honda manual provides a down rating of these values when extra passengers are added in the vehicle, based on the requirement to lower the overall weight of the vehicle by reducing the tongue weight proportionally.

[Rossue]

I'm not understanding how a front-wheel drive platform CUV(crossover utility vehicle, not SUV) can tow anything near 7700 lbs. without a WDH, which VW is prohibiting. Doesn't that mean reduction in weight on the front wheels and thus possible control issues?

In the broader context are CUV's, which operate with a transaxle driving front wheels with drive axles as robust as rear-wheel drive vehicles with a much larger single drive shaft driving a differential?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Rossue

I'm not understanding how a front-wheel drive platform CUV(crossover utility vehicle, not SUV) can tow anything near 7700 lbs. without a WDH, which VW is prohibiting. Doesn't that mean reduction in weight on the front wheels and thus possible control issues?

All Touaregs - and all Pilots/Ridgelines and similar vehicles with the highest tow rating for the model range - are all-wheel-drive. Even if they only drive the front wheels most of the time (which depends on model and options) they drive the rears whenever they need I don't see drive traction as a concern any more than with any other configuration of the same weight of tow vehicle.

Load transfer from front to rear wheels is dependent only on wheelbase and hitch overhang (distance from rear axle to ball). It is the same for these "CUVs" as it is for the most traditional SUV of the same size. Yes, a Touareg has shorter wheelbase than (for instance) a Chev Tahoe, but only slightly... and it looks like the Touareg has less overhang.

So, is the load transfer a problem?
I have some specs from VW for an early Touareg, and I'll use them because they provide separate front and rear axle weights (which I am surprised are not very front-heavy), and assume an overhang to the ball of 30% of the wheelbase (or about three feet):

Distribution

front | rear | ball

Empty vehicle (total 5086 lb)

2657 | 2429 | 0

Vehicle plus 616-pound trailer tongue

2472 | 3230 | 616

With the trailer, the rear axle carries more load than the front - is this a problem? Not necessarily; every pickup truck has a higher rear axle capacity than front, and is rear-heavy when fully loaded.
How about the "front wheels barely touching the ground" complaint that I read so often? No - the front axle load has only been reduced by 7%; there's over a ton clamping those tires to the pavement.
Passengers in the front seat add about equally to both axles and reduce the front/rear imbalance.

A first-generation Ridgeline has longer wheelbase than a regular Yukon/Tahoe (although shorter than the Yukon EXT/Suburban) and the new Ridgeline is essentially the same size. It will also have more overhang than a Touareg, but probably less than a Yukon/Tahoe.

[TAfraser]

I own an 06 Ridgeline and so far it's towing our 21 just fine. In the manual it's rated to tow 5000# with up to 600# of tongue weight (discounted for equipment carried by the truck and altitude while towing). But the Honda hitch is rated as pictured, 5000# with only 500# tongue weight, go figure. If Honda didn't up their game on the new Ridgeline in the towing area, I'll be very disappointed, and probably looking elsewhere for our next tow vehicle.
Tom

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by TAfraser

I own an 06 Ridgeline and so far it's towing our 21 just fine. In the manual it's rated to tow 5000# with up to 600# of tongue weight (discounted for equipment carried by the truck and altitude while towing). But the Honda hitch is rated as pictured, 5000# with only 500# tongue weight, go figure. If Honda didn't up their game on the new Ridgeline in the towing area, I'll be very disappointed, and probably looking elsewhere for our next tow vehicle.

Three possibilities occur to me:

1. The illustrated rating may be only a pre-production example, and not the same as the final rating.
2. The new rating may be compliant with SAE standard J2807, while the old one may not have been - the vehicle may now be more capable, but with a lower rating due to a much more stringent standard.
3. Priorities may have changed, and so Honda may have designed the vehicle to improve other aspects (ride? unloaded efficiency?) at the expense of towing capacity.

I don't think we'll know if it is one of these - or something else entirely - until final ratings are published.

[David H]

Originally Posted by Rossue

I'm not understanding how a front-wheel drive platform CUV(crossover utility vehicle, not SUV) can tow anything near 7700 lbs. without a WDH, which VW is prohibiting. Doesn't that mean reduction in weight on the front wheels and thus possible control issues?

In the broader context are CUV's, which operate with a transaxle driving front wheels with drive axles as robust as rear-wheel drive vehicles with a much larger single drive shaft driving a differential?

The Touareg is not front wheel drive its permanent all wheel drive. It has a longitudinally mounted engine and transmission mated with a Torsen central differential which nominally distributes power 42% to the front wheels and 58% to the rear wheels. The Torsen differential is torque sensing and distributes power as required between a maximum of 60% front with 40% rear and a maximum of 80% rear with 20% front. The Touareg is also classed as a light truck in accordance with EPA and CN standards.

WRT a vehicles load carrying capabilities owners and others do not have the detailed design information which the manufacturers engineering group are privy to. The maximum ratings provided in the owners manual already have been modified using a safety factor which means the actual true maximum loads are likely considerably higher than specified.