Karl with EV Ford Truck

[Eggscape]

Originally Posted by Donna D.

There are nine members on FiberglassRV with an American Outback

Nine lucky people. Thanks Donna I did see when I searched for images that the Fiberglass Forum name did turn up under a few of the photos. I wanted a generic picture to post rather than this great trailer below.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

'Hoovie', a youtuber who's a car nerd, had already panned it for towing in a previous video, this time he discovers it can only go like 65 miles in cold weather before you get down to critically low. 2nd half of the video, he's off drooling on a Hummer EV demo car he was loaned, he has the attention of a labrador retriever in a squirrel forest.
.

So, in case anyone is curious I can describe what was going on there in that video. Hoovie left his truck sitting outside overnight, so when he got in and drove it, the F150 put a huge amount of battery energy into bringing the battery and drive units up to optimum temperature.

If he'd left it plugged in, it would have used power from the charge system to keep those parts all warm, and his range would not have been affected nearly so much. So it isn't strictly that cold weather shortens range, so much as a truck that's allowed to get completely cold will use up a ton of power warming itself. Again, if it had been plugged in, it probably would have been much better (I think......I'm not 100% sure of Ford's strategy on a plugged in vehicle in low ambient).

But this does highlight a challenge for expansion of the EV market to people who don't have Hoogie's large, comfortable house with giant garage. Basically, EV's don't do well when left unplugged in low ambient. So this can be a problem

Imagine living in Minneapolis and leaving your EV at the airport for a week while you go on a trip. Will it work and get you home when you return? Maybe.

But realistically EVs will need to be left plugged in when parked long term, especially in low ambient temperatures. But this might not be as challenging as you'd think, because it's also plausible that a Level 1 charger (which is typically useless) might be adequate for keeping the system warm.

[cpaharley2008]

You need to plug in a charger and then hook it to your battery to keep the battery charged, that is all that is needed on a non electric vehicle.

[MyronL]

Really like them new electric powered by battery trucks. Maybe that’s an upgrade in my future – smooth quiet ride, no gasoline bills, sounds good to me --So-- I want to tow my 4 thousand pound 19 to San Diego, a distance from home of about 800 miles, and usually 2 or 3 days on the road. Love San Diego, Quartzsite, etc.

Do I have this right? Carl says doing 60 mph with my battery powered truck I can go a hundred miles before the battery needs recharging. And that’s going to take 10-13 hours each stop. Then, I can get back on the road for another hundred miles. If this is correct it means eight overnight stays instead of 2 or 3.

Would I just have to get lucky? There’s some lonely, wide open spaces in New Mexico and Arizona. Anyone know where along the route I can count on them eight battery recharge stations being there?

[MrLynn]

I think it is well understood that the energy density of gasoline or diesel fuels exceed that of existing batteries. The batteries are better now than they were when 'electric' (i.e. battery-powered) cars were popular, c. 1920, but they are still inferior to hydrocarbon fuels (and weigh more). The problem was then that gas-powered cars required hand cranking to start.

When the electric starter made hand-cranking obsolete, the superiority of the internal combustion engine was obvious. But electric power to the wheels can be a lot more efficient, which is why it was electric and diesel-electric locomotives that replaced steam on the railroads. Electric locomotives use an external source of power (catenary or third rail). Diesel-electric locomotives use big diesel engines and generators to power electric drive motors. There were dual-mode switchers made for a time (using external electricity and batteries when electric power wasn't available), and dual-mode road engines that could run on third rail or diesel power, but almost no battery-only engines.

Current 'EV' cars are really battery-only engines, and my guess is that they will always suffer from the limitations of batteries (heavy weight, easily depleted storage), unless there is a revolution in capability we haven't seen yet. However, the 'hybrid' certainly will have a place ongoing; it's basically the same principle as the diesel-electric locomotive, in this case 'gas-electric', generating its own electricity.

I think there are some hybrid pickups being made now. Is anyone here towing an Escape (or comparable trailer) with one?

[MyronL]

And let's not forget the extra storage space under the hood.

[emers382]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

Imagine living in Minneapolis and leaving your EV at the airport for a week while you go on a trip. Will it work and get you home when you return? Maybe.

But realistically EVs will need to be left plugged in when parked long term, especially in low ambient temperatures. But this might not be as challenging as you'd think, because it's also plausible that a Level 1 charger (which is typically useless) might be adequate for keeping the system warm.

Jeffrey I just read on another forum the following. Another comment in the same thread mentioned the difficulty of using EV delivery trucks in MN.

Quote...If your EV is parked at the airport, at 32F or less, for a few days, the EV will have automatically tried to keep the battery from freezing, until the battery is near empty.

You get off the plane, get into your EV, nothing happens, likely some lights on the screen, telling you, “you are %*&#$”

You use your phone to call for removal to a warm garage. If you get an answer, you are lucky, because there are hundreds like you, in the same boat, at the same airport, etc.

In any case, after many hours of screwing around, you are finally on your way home...

[Mike Lewis]

Last winter there was a large traffic jam caused by a snowstorm on I-95 south of Washington, D.C. The traffic jam lasted for several hours. Teslas caught up in it were in danger of running out of power and freezing their passengers.

When I lived in that area there was a similar, six-hour traffic jam in August on the same road. EV drivers would have run their batteries down keeping the A/C on. It was life-threatening heat and they would have had no choice; some people had to be taken away by ambulance IIRC.

Elon Musk has shown that EVs are practical commuter cars in mild climates, but every other use case appears to pose major challenges.

[brjohnso]

If you charge at home at residential rates, EV's save you a lot of money on gas. However, whenever you charge remotely at a charging station, the operators of those stations bend you over backwards on the charging costs, and it winds up costing you the same or MORE per mile than if you just filled up a gas/diesel vehicle. So even if EV tow vehicles solve the range problem, they will cost as much or more to operate than a comparable gas vehicle while towing away from home. As an example, one person charging their Rivian was paying $40 per fast charge to go 100 miles of towing. At 10mpg, you can tow 100 miles with $40 of $4/gal gas, and you don't have to mess with charging every 100 miles.

[splitting_lanes]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

I changed jobs. Did diesel engine development for a couple decades and then decided to try something new, so now I'm developing electric drive units.

Nice! I am very used to seeing about 1 in 4 cars on the road electric ( in Silicon Valley) and have seen many Rivians and even a couple of Ford Lightnings. But on the cross country trip we took in September and October I might have seen 3 total.

Being able to pass on the gas stations and mechanics is a boon for your wallet.

I look forward to hearing more about electric drive units from you.

[skiman]

When I worked for GM we did the the brake system for the EV-1. It had a lead acid battery and range somewhere around 50 miles if I remember correctly. I drove one around a snow field test track in Northern Michigan and it was a hoot. Several hundred miles is quite an improvement in range but it took 25 years to get there. Heavy duty uses such as trailer towing will come, but not overnight. If I was still working with a 20 mile commute, electric would be great. Passing regulations forcing technology before its time will be a disaster. Trailer towing will come, just not overnight. It took 25 years to get from 50 miles to 300 or more.

[Ooshkaboo]

I find cars as interesting as refrigerators, plastic, rubber and metal that’s just been formed differently.
But—when I first sat in my son's car that Elon built…
If you haven’t been in one, go for a test ride and see for yourself.

[Micheal K]

My wife got a Hyundai EV a several months back for her commute. Her previous vehicle was a very fuel efficient mini cooper. Electricity costs for the new vehicle are at least 80% less than fuel costs were for the mini (in BC). In winter her range has been reduced by about 25%. She charges at home every night, but if we didn't have that capability, she could still go about a week before needing to charge. So far, other than the initial price of the vehicle, there isn't a single metric I can think of where the mini was better for commuting than her EV. It also is quieter and pulls harder off the line than my V8.

Regarding people in EVs freezing or overheating in a traffic jam, the only way that could happen is if the battery was already nearly depleted at the beginning of the traffic jam. Pretty much the same as if your gas tank was nearly empty. The battery in my wife's car is 64kWh, so that means at 50% charge it could still run a 1000W resistive heater for 32 hrs. (The car has a heat pump, so it would actually provide heating longer than that). Same goes for cooling.

https://jalopnik.com/getting-stuck-i...t-t-1848393538

Personally, I was attracted to Escape trailers precisely because they were small, relatively aerodynamic and could be towed by smaller non-traditional tow vehicles. I get that EVs aren't there yet for towing, but unlike many I guess, I can't wait to ditch the ICE tow vehicle. Why? Because I like the mechanical simplicity of an electric drive train and the relative lack of required maintenance. Also, at the risk of getting a bit political, I would like to be less dependent on petroleum. BC doesn't have a lot of petroleum but it does have hydroelectricity. Tired of being held hostage at the pump every time some pyschopathic petro state chokes supply or starts a war.

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

But realistically EVs will need to be left plugged in when parked long term, especially in low ambient temperatures. But this might not be as challenging as you'd think, because it's also plausible that a Level 1 charger (which is typically useless) might be adequate for keeping the system warm.

I thought EV users want to "go green" and save energy? Having to leave one's automobile plugged in and guzzling electricity while simply sitting idle seems counter-intuitive to that goal. (Whereas the ICE vehicle owner can shut off his engine and let it sit, burning no energy, until the next time it's needed... even if that is 2 weeks down the road.)

Meanwhile the electric company might be burning natural gas, or coal, or whatever to keep the power on for that EV.

[splitting_lanes]

Originally Posted by Mike G

I thought EV users want to "go green" and save energy? Having to leave one's automobile plugged in and guzzling electricity while simply sitting idle seems counter-intuitive to that goal. Meanwhile the ICE vehicle owner can shut off his engine and let it sit, burning no energy, until the next time it's needed... even if that is 2 weeks down the road.

Meanwhile the electric company might be burning natural gas, or coal, or whatever to keep the power on for that EV.

Studies have shown that even if the power company uses the dirtiest fuel, coal, it’s still cut’s emissions by half using an electric vehicle. ( vs a ICE car )

And, power companies are transitioning away from dirty fuel…. It’s just harder to replace a power plant than a car.

Just this week I got a note from the city of San Jose asking if I’d be interested in charging my car during the day if they pay me a $1. I said sure! I’ll take the dollar, I already do charge during the day when the solar panels are generating

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by Mike G

I thought EV users want to "go green" and save energy? Having to leave one's automobile plugged in and guzzling electricity while simply sitting idle seems counter-intuitive to that goal. (Whereas the ICE vehicle owner can shut off his engine and let it sit, burning no energy, until the next time it's needed... even if that is 2 weeks down the road.)

Meanwhile the electric company might be burning natural gas, or coal, or whatever to keep the power on for that EV.

The power to keep the battery and drive unit(s) warm is quite small. Remember we are talking about two different things......keeping something warm (which is a power level equal to the rate at which heat is seeping to the environment) vs. a total energy level (which is what I have to spend to bring the system up from one temperature to another).

All in, including things like warm strategies and all the extra energy that goes into EV manufacture, EVs still dramatically reduce GHG emissions over their lifetimes.

The break even on GHG for the manufacture is 1.9-2.4 years depending on the size and range, and after that the EV is putting out around half the GHG per year of a gasoline car when using the current electric grid mix.

And the electric grid is getting better every year, as power companies are retiring coal plants and investing in renewables.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by splitting_lanes

Nice! I am very used to seeing about 1 in 4 cars on the road electric ( in Silicon Valley) and have seen many Rivians and even a couple of Ford Lightnings. But on the cross country trip we took in September and October I might have seen 3 total.

CA has a much higher fraction of EVs in the mix than anywhere else. And everywhere else, you see more of them in cities than you do in rural areas, for obvious reasons.

Still, as the charging networks grow and the vehicles continue to evolve, I think most vehicles will become EVs. I also think the regulatory drivers to move that way will ramp up.

The wealth destruction we are going to see as the climate changes is going to be quite amazing. People's tolerance for some inconveniences will scale with the scope of the destruction.

Being able to pass on the gas stations and mechanics is a boon for your wallet.

My company provides free charging at work. You want a nice perk in this gasoline price environment, try never having to pay to fuel your car.

I look forward to hearing more about electric drive units from you.

EVs are changing the industry. There's a lot of interesting technology and knowledge that goes into batteries and drive units, but at the end of the day they are still far simpler than a complete ICE powertrain.

This means automakers are going to be able to do new car projects faster, with less engineers. That was part of my interest in moving to an EV OEM. I'm rapidly becoming one of the relatively small number of drive unit experts.

Working on diesel, I was starting to feel like I was the ne plus ultra for steam locomotive design and engineering in 1946. Not the best place to be situated.

[Mike Lewis]

Originally Posted by Micheal K

The battery in my wife's car is 64kWh, so that means at 50% charge it could still run a 1000W resistive heater for 32 hrs. (The car has a heat pump, so it would actually provide heating longer than that). Same goes for cooling.

In an extreme weather condition the EV's battery first has to heat or cool itself. That would reduce the time it would be able to heat/cool the passenger compartment.

[MrLynn]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

CA has a much higher fraction of EVs in the mix than anywhere else. And everywhere else, you see more of them in cities than you do in rural areas, for obvious reasons.

Still, as the charging networks grow and the vehicles continue to evolve, I think most vehicles will become EVs. I also think the regulatory drivers to move that way will ramp up.

The wealth destruction we are going to see as the climate changes is going to be quite amazing. People's tolerance for some inconveniences will scale with the scope of the destruction.


My company provides free charging at work. You want a nice perk in this gasoline price environment, try never having to pay to fuel your car.


EVs are changing the industry. There's a lot of interesting technology and knowledge that goes into batteries and drive units, but at the end of the day they are still far simpler than a complete ICE powertrain.

This means automakers are going to be able to do new car projects faster, with less engineers. That was part of my interest in moving to an EV OEM. I'm rapidly becoming one of the relatively small number of drive unit experts.

Working on diesel, I was starting to feel like I was the ne plus ultra for steam locomotive design and engineering in 1946. Not the best place to be situated.

Well, your enthusiasm is admirable, but I think you are mistaken. Re "The wealth destruction we are going to see as the climate changes": There isn't any, and there isn't what the alarmists call a "climate crisis" either. See here:

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/04/...the-emergency/

Re "I think most vehicles will become EVs. I also think the regulatory drivers to move that way will ramp up": You may be right, but it's unfortunate. Experimenting with battery-powered ('electric') vehicles, and other technologies (hydrogen fuel cells, spinning flywheels, whatever) is eminently worthwhile. What's crazy is having governments (Federal and State) mandate a particular technology, and use taxpayer money to push us in one direction or another, rather than letting the free market decide. The CA legislature now wants to forbid the sale of new ICE vehicles by 2030!

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/12/...tric-vehicles/

Note to moderators: Sadly, it is a fact that the technology and desirability of EVs has become embedded in government policy, so inevitably an interesting discussion of the pros and cons becomes a political matter. Since politics is forbidden on this Forum, I won't be surprised if you delete this post, and maybe some of Jeffrey's observations as well.

[splitting_lanes]

Originally Posted by JeffreyG

CA has a much higher fraction of EVs in the mix than anywhere else. And everywhere else, you see more of them in cities than you do in rural areas, for obvious reasons.

Still, as the charging networks grow and the vehicles continue to evolve, I think most vehicles will become EVs. I also think the regulatory drivers to move that way will ramp up.

The wealth destruction we are going to see as the climate changes is going to be quite amazing. People's tolerance for some inconveniences will scale with the scope of the destruction.

My company provides free charging at work. You want a nice perk in this gasoline price environment, try never having to pay to fuel your car.

EVs are changing the industry. There's a lot of interesting technology and knowledge that goes into batteries and drive units, but at the end of the day they are still far simpler than a complete ICE powertrain.

This means automakers are going to be able to do new car projects faster, with less engineers. That was part of my interest in moving to an EV OEM. I'm rapidly becoming one of the relatively small number of drive unit experts.

Working on diesel, I was starting to feel like I was the ne plus ultra for steam locomotive design and engineering in 1946. Not the best place to be situated.

I am on an iPad which isn’t easy to clip sentences for a reply, so my replies are all below.

I surmise the wealth destruction will impact the poor and middle class the most.

We’ve had free charging at work around here since the chargers were installed. I was an early adopter, so even when there weren’t chargers, I had an extension cord and was allowed to run it out to the car. There was a period of time where I went so long without going to a fuel pump I had forgotten how to pump fuel and had to read the instructions a couple times.

I really appreciated your enlightenment on diesel emissions systems, there’s not much explanation readily available for how they work. Good luck with your new position. As an electric car owner for 11 years and 98k miles I can say it was one of the best investments/expenses I ever made. Saved me 98k miles of fuel and oil changes, for starters…. And the air quality in the Bay Area has improved visibly.