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Old 12-11-2022, 12:15 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lewis View Post
In an extreme weather condition the EV's battery first has to heat or cool itself. That would reduce the time it would be able to heat/cool the passenger compartment.
True. My point was to illustrate the size of the battery and that just heating the vehicle for a few hours in even very cold weather is not going to drain it. I probably should have used more refined numbers though. I’ll try to do that here…

As mentioned previously, range reduction in the winter is about 25%. This was observed when the temperature was averaging -10C (14F) for a week recently. Winter range loss is due to battery and cabin heating and some reduction in battery efficiency even with heating. The car is typically charged to 90%, so for my wife’s car, winter battery capacity is 75% x 90% x 64 kWh = 43.2 kWh.

If stuck in a traffic jam at 14F outside and only having 50% remaining capacity and neglecting cabin heating already part of winter range loss and neglecting that it uses a heat pump for heating, the car’s battery could still run a 1000W resistive heater for over 21 hrs.

43.2 kWh would also be enough to run our house electrical load in the winter for 2 days. Longer if we took conservation measures. Unfortunately the car doesn’t support vehicle-to-load but it’s becoming a more common feature in new models.
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Old 12-11-2022, 12:16 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by MrLynn View Post
.....

I think there are some hybrid pickups being made now. Is anyone here towing an Escape (or comparable trailer) with one?

I tow my 21 with an F-150 Powerboost. In tow/haul mode, the truck uses both electric motor and gasoline engine. Great power - similar to driving a diesel. Gets about 14MPG.



When not towing, it can run about 10 - 15% of the time on electric only, providing good MPG for a 1/2 ton truck. 25MPG for me, in the summer; 22 in the winter.


Many Powerboost owners, myself included, would like to see a larger battery pack and plug-in charging capability. Perhaps the next gen model will have that....
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Old 12-11-2022, 12:27 PM   #43
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Lynn, thanks for posting the links to WUWT articles. I follow that site too. It would be nice to hear what you think about your state's future with energy. PM me.

It's interesting that comments about the power needed to "fuel" EV's likely comes from burning fossil fuels. In our case it would make sense to have an EV, in MB 97% of our power is hydro and at under 10 cents a KWH, I could run an EV much cheaper than an ICE.

However we have only one vehicle and don't want another. How do we tow our 5.0TA? We also live 100km from Winnipeg where we travel often for appointments. Most of our driving is highway so the regenerative braking of an EV would be useless for us.
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Old 12-11-2022, 02:53 PM   #44
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I am learning from this thread. I know there are numerous sides to the EV—ICE vehicle “debate”. I am thinking since I have more than adequate electricity generated by our solar array and even if I can’t pay for all of my electricity needs from the current setup, it can be upsized for 4 more 390 watt panels. So the prospect of using an EV for a high percentage of my day to day errand and family contact driving and charging at home looks attractive. My other thought is that my Escape tow vehicle if only used for longer trips would last a lot longer.
I’m not all in yet, but have two pair of face cards, and I am staying in for the river. The made in USA credit is attractive too. Time will tell.
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Old 12-11-2022, 03:07 PM   #45
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I will be interested in self generating vehicle's
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Old 12-11-2022, 03:19 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tosh View Post
I tow my 21 with an F-150 Powerboost. In tow/haul mode, the truck uses both electric motor and gasoline engine. Great power - similar to driving a diesel. Gets about 14MPG.

When not towing, it can run about 10 - 15% of the time on electric only, providing good MPG for a 1/2 ton truck. 25MPG for me, in the summer; 22 in the winter.

Many Powerboost owners, myself included, would like to see a larger battery pack and plug-in charging capability. Perhaps the next gen model will have that....
Very interesting. I just read a Motor Trend review of a 2021 model. Have they fixed the problem with uncertain braking the reviewer mentions?

I gather the electric motor is tied into the 10-speed transmission. Is that how all hybrids work? I wonder how the tranny can handle the dual inputs (from the gas and electric motors). Must be like the Fairbanks-Morse dual-crankshaft diesels, which were used on ships (and for a brief time on the short-lived F-M locomotives). Maybe Jeffrey can explain.

I wonder, too about the batteries. Are the hybrids using the same Li-ion batteries that full 'EVs' do? They are getting a reputation for bursting into flame when not carefully maintained. My daughter has an older, hand-me-down Prius; she says the battery is not that type. Reportedly, the small lithium batteries used in trailers are the Lithium-iron-phosphate type, which are much safer.

Guess I should do some reading. We have to replace my wife's 2007 Subaru, and a hybrid could be an option.
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Old 12-11-2022, 03:57 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by MrLynn View Post
I gather the electric motor is tied into the 10-speed transmission. Is that how all hybrids work? I wonder how the tranny can handle the dual inputs (from the gas and electric motors). Must be like the Fairbanks-Morse dual-crankshaft diesels, which were used on ships (and for a brief time on the short-lived F-M locomotives). Maybe Jeffrey can explain.
Opposed piston diesels only direct power to the transmission from one crankshaft. The other crankshaft is geared to the first and shares power back through the geartrain. The two crankshafts run slightly out of phase for scavenging reasons, and so one crank winds up taking the lion's share of the generated power anyway.

But anyway, hybrids can be done all sorts of ways, with different advantages / disadvantages.
P0 - Motor on the accessory belt, can absorb and dispense power only when the engine is running, very limited power levels because of the belt.
P1 - Motor on the crankshaft (usually a flywheel motor). Can often replace the engine starter. Also can only work when the engine is running. Capable of high power.
P2 - Motor is geared to the transmission input shaft (after the clutch). High power, can drive the vehicle all by itself and can be operated when the engine is off.
P3 - Motor is on the transmission output or on the axle input. Similar to P2 in operation, but has some disadvantages as the speed is low and the torque is high, which is not ideal for electric motors.

Quote:
I wonder, too about the batteries. Are the hybrids using the same Li-ion batteries that full 'EVs' do? They are getting a reputation for bursting into flame when not carefully maintained.
Yes, they do use the same battery types. EVs are much less likely to be involved in fires than ICE vehicles, but when they burn they are much harder to put out. This is what has them in the news.

Quote:
My daughter has an older, hand-me-down Prius; she says the battery is not that type. Reportedly, the small lithium batteries used in trailers are the Lithium-iron-phosphate type, which are much safer.
RVs almost always use LiFePO4 batteries (henceforth I will call them LFP). There is an increasing user of these battery types in EVs as well, instead of more expensive Li-Cobalt chemistries.

LFP batteries have lower energy density than Li_cobalt and a more restricted temperature profile.
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Old 12-11-2022, 04:53 PM   #48
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Thanks, Jeffrey, for the explanations. I guess no one lately has come up with a true gas/diesel-electric, i.e. electric motor running all the time powered by gas engine and generator. Maybe not flexible enough for automotive use?

Re fires, ICE car fires are often fairly minor. I have read of apartment buildings prohibiting EVs in underground garages for fear of catastrophic fires.

I think if I were buying a battery-powered vehicle, I'd want to know which type was in it.
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Old 12-11-2022, 05:11 PM   #49
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Nattering nabobs of negativism

Several auto manufacturers have stated they will cease production of ICE powered vehicles by 2030.

I acquired a 2023 Chevy Bolt EUV 2 months ago. I love it. It is a much different driving experience. But I had an idea of what I was getting into. I have 2 other vehicles; one, a 10 year old van with 10,000 lb towing capacity. That covers the Escape towing waterfront. Also a AWD station wagon, around 30 mpg. That covers long trips.

EV's are a bit of a niche transport vehicle right now. I use mine for local stuff, around town. Range is 250 miles, 1/2 that in super-cold Wisconsin winter. It makes no difference to me. Very inexpensive to refuel at home, a retired geezer who ain't in much of a hurry to get anywhere, and it would make an excellent commuter vehicle, if I had a job to go to. Charge overnight and you're good to go. Having a 115 MPGe (gas equivalent) for the Bolt sure helps the wallet.

Others have commented, that the Ford is a niche vehicle for a contractor doing local work. Yup! It may take quite some time before we get to very long range and quick charging EV's. Physics and electrochemistry RULE!, not hopes, dreams and gee-whizz possibilities. That said, I'm working on a revolutionary Chlorophyll traction drive system. That method works for plants very well, and would mitigate the CO2 issue. (JOKE)

Our city bus system is buying some EV buses. Even Domino Pizza has bought a fleet of EV cars for delivery. Amazon, USPS and Fed EX scream as naturals for EV use. Long haul trucking? I dunno.

A change is a coming. How fast, how complete, how successful, I'll leave that one to the seers.
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Old 12-11-2022, 07:27 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by emers382 View Post
"If your EV is parked at the airport, at 32F or less, for a few days, the EV will have automatically tried to keep the battery from freezing, until the battery is near empty.

You get off the plane, get into your EV, nothing happens, likely some lights on the screen, telling you, “you are %*&#$”

You use your phone to call for removal to a warm garage. If you get an answer, you are lucky, because there are hundreds like you, in the same boat, at the same airport, etc.

In any case, after many hours of screwing around, you are finally on your way home."
Better parking facilities will plug in your car (EV or not) in advance of your scheduled return, to avoid this very real problem.
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Old 12-11-2022, 07:42 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by MrLynn View Post
Are the hybrids using the same Li-ion batteries that full 'EVs' do? They are getting a reputation for bursting into flame when not carefully maintained. My daughter has an older, hand-me-down Prius; she says the battery is not that type. Reportedly, the small lithium batteries used in trailers are the Lithium-iron-phosphate type, which are much safer.
In general, plug-in hybrids (that's hybrids with a big enough battery that you can charge it at home or a charging station then drive some distance on that stored energy) use the same type of lithium-ion batteries as battery-electric vehicles (BEV)... slightly modified to allow for high power relative to the battery size, since these batteries are still smaller than those in BEVs.

Some non-plug-in hybrids use lithium-ion batteries, while others still use nickel metal hydride (NiMH). For instance, the Ford F-150 PowerBoost and Toyota Tundra Hybrid are nearly identical in every aspect of their design (both non-plug in parallel hybrids, and many other details), but the Ford has lithium-ion and the Toyota has NiMH. Any older Prius and non-plug-in Toyota hybrids in general have NiMH batteries.

EV batteries do not burst into flame due to poor maintenance. A few do burn due to manufacturing defects or collision damage, but EV fires are less common (in fires for a given number of vehicles) than gasoline vehicle fires.

Lithium-ion batteries in some EVs and many less demanding applications (including most RVs with lithium-ion house batteries) use lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4, or LFP) batteries. They are more thermally stable. I don't think any light-duty battery-electric vehicle currently sold in North America uses LFP.
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Old 12-11-2022, 07:50 PM   #52
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Types of hybrids

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLynn View Post
Very interesting. I just read a Motor Trend review of a 2021 model. Have they fixed the problem with uncertain braking the reviewer mentions?

I gather the electric motor is tied into the 10-speed transmission. Is that how all hybrids work?
The Ford F-150 PowerBoost is a P2 parallel hybrid, as listed in Jeffery's excellent description of parallel hybrid configurations. So is the Toyota Tundra Hybrid.

There are other forms of hybrids, beyond the parallel hybrids which Jeffery listed. The most established - and very common - design is that used for the Prius: it is a power-split design, in which power from the engine is split (by a planetary gear set) into a mechanical path and an electric generator and motor path. A very few are series hybrids, in which the engine drives a generator, and power from the generator or the battery drives a motor to turn the wheels. Some hybrid vehicles even combine two or even all three types of hybrid, switching modes to suit conditions. So no, they're very far from all the same.
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Old 12-11-2022, 08:03 PM   #53
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I guess no one lately has come up with a true gas/diesel-electric, i.e. electric motor running all the time powered by gas engine and generator. Maybe not flexible enough for automotive use?
It's not clear why you think that one particular configuration would be a "true" hybrid, but it seems like you are describing a series system. If there is no battery in the system it's a gas-electric or diesel-electric drive, but is not actually a hybrid, having only one energy source. Diesel-electric drives are used in locomotives and ships, but are too expensive (for their capacity) and inefficient (compared to a mechanical transmission) to make sense for cars and trucks. The battery of a real hybrid is needed to enable features such as regenerative braking which make the expense worthwhile.

Pure series hybrids are rare in cars because they're generally not worth doing, but the Fisker Karma and BMW i3 REx were examples (the only two that I know of that actually went into production).
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Old 12-11-2022, 08:05 PM   #54
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Re fires, ICE car fires are often fairly minor. I have read of apartment buildings prohibiting EVs in underground garages for fear of catastrophic fires.
Yes, they're uncommon, but EV fires are even less common, by a wide margin.
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Old 12-11-2022, 08:46 PM   #55
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Clarification needed

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Originally Posted by Mike G View Post
I thought EV users want to "go green" and save energy? Having to leave one's automobile plugged in and guzzling electricity while simply sitting idle seems counter-intuitive to that goal. (Whereas the ICE vehicle owner can shut off his engine and let it sit, burning no energy, until the next time it's needed... even if that is 2 weeks down the road.)

Meanwhile the electric company might be burning natural gas, or coal, or whatever to keep the power on for that EV.


Save energy with an EV? How so?
EV users who charge their vehicles typically do that on "off peak" hours. Utilities typically can not store the electrons, however they create them....solar, nuke, wind, coal, gas. Charging at "off peak" utilizes otherwise "wasted" energy, and utilities offer reduced rates for doing so, and the cars can be programmed to charge when you want them to, or even command them to via a cell phone.

Electricity guzzling, versus fossil fuel guzzling, greenhouse gas producing (21 pounds of CO2 per gallon of fuel combusted)? Take your poisin of choice.

Salud!
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Old 12-11-2022, 09:30 PM   #56
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Save energy with an EV? How so?
EV users who charge their vehicles typically do that on "off peak" hours. Utilities typically can not store the electrons, however they create them....solar, nuke, wind, coal, gas. Charging at "off peak" utilizes otherwise "wasted" energy, and utilities offer reduced rates for doing so, and the cars can be programmed to charge when you want them to, or even command them to via a cell phone.

Electricity guzzling, versus fossil fuel guzzling, greenhouse gas producing (21 pounds of CO2 per gallon of fuel combusted)? Take your poisin of choice.

Salud!
CO2 is plant food, not 'poison'. Patrick Moore said it better than I could:

https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uplo...10/Moore-2.pdf
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Old 12-12-2022, 07:23 AM   #57
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Really?

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CO2 is plant food, not 'poison'.
Too much of anything can make you sick.
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Old 12-12-2022, 08:03 AM   #58
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Too much of anything can make you sick.
Indeed (except for beer).

Greenhouse operators routinely add c. 1,000 ppm CO2, to encourage plant growth. 5,000 ppm or so is safe for humans. Current atmospheric CO2 is c. 400 ppm. Under 200 ppm you approach plant death. There is no empirical evidence that burning organic (hydrocarbon) fuels measurably affects global temperatures. But added CO2 is helping forests and agriculture, hence 'greening' the Earth.
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Old 12-12-2022, 08:12 AM   #59
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Emissions

No fooling, Tom
Here’s a screen shot of a year and a half of solar power generated by our system. The monthly readings are accurate for two years but the system had to be restarted in July 2021 so the CO2 and tree planting equivalents are for a year and a half. That first half of 2021 was very close to the first half of 2022 but not being shown on the CO2 and trees planted equivalents.

We are very happy with the solar setup. Full payback is just over 4 years away (4yrs. 2mos.). Our heat and cooling are geothermal and the electrical and propane savings gave us payback a couple years ago as we’ve had it for some time.

Reducing CO2 emissions with the solar is important to me. I’ve planted and had oversight for planting thousands of trees from Iowa to Idaho to Ohio over the past 55 years. I have been an Aldo Leopold disciple for that long too.

Have a great day.
Get out and breathe the best air you can find. Roll over a dead log in the woods and marvel at the life that’s either there or has left a track. Do the early Boy Scout requirement for observing ten signs of animal life. Remember, the skull is the last track an animal ever makes. Iowa. And contemplate how it all fits together.
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Old 12-12-2022, 08:19 AM   #60
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Being confined to a small, in town, sized lot, I envy those who can choose solar. No option for roof as my roof is slate....but I will continue my recycling.....
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