Real Tongue Weights on a 21'

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

don't know, haven't driven a Transit. My towing-with-a-van experience is mostly limited to a 2001 E150 w/ the old 5.4 "Vortex" gas guzzler. That van as a passenger wagon had a 6600 lb tow capacity (I just verified this off the 2001 edition of the Ford Towing Guide), and a 12000 lb GCWR.

Prior to J2807 towing standards. So that doesn't mean much except puffing from the mfg. does it?

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Prior to J2807 towing standards. So that doesn't mean much except puffing from the mfg. does it?

well, it means the chassis, axles, suspension, drive train, etc are up to the task. maybe it won't win races up Jacks Peak.

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

well, it means the chassis, axles, suspension, drive train, etc are up to the task. maybe it won't win races up Jacks Peak.

What!!! Ecoboost envy or?

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Rossue

What!!! Ecoboost envy or?

Actually, an Expedition, ideally the FX-4 package, is on my short list of vehicles I'm interested in to replace my 20 year old F250.

The Expedition Max can seat 4,5, 7 or 8 passengers, tows 9000 lbs, and has the 3.5 ecoboost with the 10 speed automatic. the configurations I've seen so far have had payloads around 1700 lbs, which means 1200 lbs plus Escape hitch weight, which is plenty adequate for us. the middle (captain or bench) and 3rd row seats fold into the floor.

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

Actually, an Expedition, ideally the FX-4 package, is on my short list of vehicles I'm interested in to replace my 20 year old F250.

The Expedition Max can seat 4,5, 7 or 8 passengers, tows 9000 lbs, and has the 3.5 ecoboost with the 10 speed automatic. the configurations I've seen so far have had payloads around 1700 lbs, which means 1200 lbs plus Escape hitch weight, which is plenty adequate for us. the middle (captain or bench) and 3rd row seats fold into the floor.

Yep, have that rig(not Max) why do you want a Max?

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Rossue

Yep, have that rig(not Max) why do you want a Max?

my astronomy and festival gear can get pretty bulky, especially when combined with popup awnings, carpets, tables, chairs for a large camp.

this is just my larger telescope, with the minimum needed to use it, including a 7' step ladder, the motorcycle ramps to load/unload it, the yellow eyepiece case (now larger), and the plastic bin of misc stuff, the pole bag, and hte main telescope with its upper tube stacked on its mirror box, all of it in the back of a longbed (8') F250 pickup.



actually, I still need to drive some Expeditions... so far all looking has been on paper. odds are we would end up buying a used 2020-2021 in 2-3 years. 2018 and early 2019 have issues, and before that they had the old transmission, and didn't link to carplay/android without adding junk to the system. FX-4 package is unobtanium on the west coast, most are XLT+ or Limited or Platinum, and almost all have 20" wheels (FX-4 has 18" wheels more suited to bad roads).

[John in Santa Cruz]

this is the same stuff, minus the ladder (its on the roof) in a Tacoma 6' bed with shell.

[Rossue]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

FX-4 package is unobtainable on the west coast, most are XLT+ or Limited or Platinum, and almost all have 20" wheels (FX-4 has 18" wheels more suited to bad roads).

After you previously mentioned this I posted a WTB 18" FX-4 wheels on the Expedition Forum. LSS I found the difference between tires for the OEM FX-4 18" wheel and my 20" OEM wheel is nothing: the difference in diameter between the 275/65R18 and 275/55R20 is amazing: 32.1 vs. 32.2.

[John in Santa Cruz]

The 18's don't ride smoother than the 20s on rough roads? did you adjust the tire pressure appropriately? a /65 series tire requires less pressure than the corresponding /55 series all else being equal.

like, i plugged in a 2021 Expedition XLT 4x4 into a tire calculator site, came up with GAWR of 3450 front, 4380 rear.
With a 275/55R20, they recommended 31 psi front, 40 psi rear.
With the 275/65R18, its 28 front, 36 rear.

that should give a noticeably softer ride on rough roads. I used a random A/T tire for this, in the proper load rating. These pressure/load ratings are indepedent of tire construction, they are dependent entirely on the size and weight. higher load rated tires can hold a higher pressure, that doesn't mean you should run a higher pressure than required.

[Rossue]

Seems negligible and didn't want to spend $1K for 18" wheels for no good reason.

There are a lot of factors with riding on softer sand. My 2013 Yukon with 20" wheels almost got stuck at Alabama Hills. At the first sign of digging in I stopped and let air out of the rear tires and was able to back out OK. Our Expedition is also a 4x2 and has ELSD, yet even then I would do the same thing if starting to get stuck.

[Andy B]

Hi,

Thanks for the input. Very helpful. Nice to hear from people who have a Transit.

I am considering a Crew van to pickup some additional tow capacity. I was able to sit in a nice Passenger van at the local Ford dealership, but is was sold so we could not test drive it. I am also considering looking in to a conversion van based on a Transit that has been built up with minimum weight as the number one priority. My guess is it probably will be as heavy or heavier than the stock Passenger van.

We travel with less than 300 pounds of driver and passenger, I have a 110 pound wife,
and a 12 pound dog. We have decided to go on a diet., I suggested each of us loose
10 pounds, but the dog objected. She wanted to use a 10 percent of current weight
target. Unfortunately, that does not add to towing weight, but it should help with up-mountain performance.

We haul the 21 with 1/2 water, empty black and grey tanks almost always. I also believe in buying food and beverages in small quantities rather than hauling a whole three weeks of stuff out the driveway on departure. We do use a WD hitch and our tongue weight was right at 400 lbs when the hitch was installed.

I am sure a 4400 lb tow rating would work and out preform the 2006 Chevy with the 5.3 v8 and the four speed trans. Our GCWR should be well below capacity.

Please keep adding thoughts, we will not be buying a new vehicle tomorrow based on the non existent inventories.
Andy

[Bowman andy]

Hi,
My username was just changed because I was unable to change my email address c. I tried to do this because the old one bwas compromised. Just my lack of talent on the website.
It is now Bowman andy

[John in Santa Cruz]

you might check out the Ford Expedition SUV too, with the towing package that most of the late model ones have, they are rated to tow 9000 lbs or so, best in class. With a 41 foot turning circle, they are pretty maneuverable, and with the back seats folded, there's tons of room for gear. they don't suffer from the van problem of sitting with the engine between you over the front axles.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

wow, those *are* low tow ratings for that class vehicle.
https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/d...owingGuide.pdf
(page 33). Even the Transit 350 '1 ton' passenger van has no better than 4400 lbs tow (and 3300 lbs for the 350 long wheelbase extended roof 4x4).

No, they're not low for the class... because the class isn't "pickup truck" or "medium duty chassis-cab". It's a van - towing is incidental (although it still does that better than many other vehicles). If you want to tow more than a couple of tons, this sort of van (whether it is from Ford, Ram, Mercedes, or other manufacturers in other markets worldwide) is probably not a suitable choice.

Given a choice of an F-150 or a Transit,

• choose the Transit if you have to carry a lot of stuff (more than double the payload of an F-150) or mount a large second unit body (much longer load area than any F-150), and
• choose the F-150 if you want to tow a heavy trailer (more than double the towing capacity of a Transit).

The F-150 and Transit are not the same class of vehicle, despite sharing the same engine and transmission.

At least part of the Transit's issue with heavy towing is that the longest body (called "extended") is on the same wheelbase as the mid-length body (called "long"), at 148". The extra rear overhang is suitable for high-volume internal cargo (and RV conversions) but bad for towing. Definitely chose the "long" body for best towing, to get the longer wheelbase without the extra overhang.

The other limitation is simply Gross Combined Weight Rating: due to limitations in something such as powertrain cooling, the Transit only goes up to 12,000 pounds GCWR, which doesn't leave a lot of room for a heavy trailer after subtracting the weight of a large van. The F-150 has similar curb weight (roughly 4,000 to 6,000 pounds depending on configuration and equipment), but goes up to over 19,000 pounds in GCWR... with essentially all of the extra GCWR (compared to a Transit or a lower-spec'd F-150) available as towing capacity.

Yes, the traditional North American vans - of which GM's Express/Savanna is the only surviving example - tow more like a pickup truck than newer vans such as the Transit. They are also less efficient as vans, which is why they are a dying breed. They - and the recently departed Nissan large NV - may still be an excellent choice for people who want to tow more than a couple tons and also have substantial enclosed space.

[John in Santa Cruz]

well, newer E21's are 5000 lbs (2.5 tons) GWR so that pretty much eliminates these Transit type vans entirely.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

well, newer E21's are 5000 lbs (2.5 tons) GWR so that pretty much eliminates these Transit type vans entirely.

If you're loading right up to GVWR, yes. The days of Escapes being "lightweight" and towable by common passenger vehicles - or even light commercial vehicles much more capable than an average passenger vehicle - are long gone.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

you might check out the Ford Expedition SUV too...
they don't suffer from the van problem of sitting with the engine between you over the front axles.

Neither do the Transit, ProMaster, or Sprinter - the engines in all of these overhang the front axle. The ProMaster has a transverse engine (no doghouse or transmission tunnel), and the others have a typical transmission tunnel between the occupant's legs. Of course that's irrelevant when the trailer exceeds the van's towing capacity.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

you might check out the Ford Expedition SUV too, with the towing package that most of the late model ones have, they are rated to tow 9000 lbs or so, best in class. With a 41 foot turning circle, they are pretty maneuverable, and with the back seats folded, there's tons of room for gear.

Similarly, the GM full-size SUVs (Chevrolet Tahoe and Suburban, GMC Yukon, etc), the Toyota Sequoia, and whatever else is in this class, are all viable choices.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

The 18's don't ride smoother than the 20s on rough roads? did you adjust the tire pressure appropriately? a /65 series tire requires less pressure than the corresponding /55 series all else being equal.

like, i plugged in a 2021 Expedition XLT 4x4 into a tire calculator site, came up with GAWR of 3450 front, 4380 rear.
With a 275/55R20, they recommended 31 psi front, 40 psi rear.
With the 275/65R18, its 28 front, 36 rear.

that should give a noticeably softer ride on rough roads...

Tire load capacity boils down to pressure and contact patch area, plus heat issues. With the same section width in this example, the lower pressure required for the 18" tires implies a longer (not wider) contact patch. The taller sidewalls (due to higher aspect ratio in the same width, or smaller wheels in the same overall diameter, depending on how one wants to think of it) can tolerate the greater sidewall distortion required to produce this longer contact patch... and that's why the taller-sidewall tire requires less pressure for the same load, or can handle more load at the same pressure (again depending on how you want to look at it).

Yes, the ride with the lower pressure will likely be better.

[MrLynn]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

well, newer E21's are 5000 lbs (2.5 tons) GWR so that pretty much eliminates these Transit type vans entirely.

My son has a passel of kids, so just managed to score a 2018 Transit 350 2-wheel drive. He wants to get a camper trailer, but is limited to 3,500 lbs towing capacity.

Best passenger vans for towing are the GMC/Chev Savanna/Express vans, with 9,000 lbs capability; son ruled them out because they lack headrests and similar amenities.

FWIW, we have a 2013 Ford Expedition EL, which holds a lot of grandkids, or a lot of gear (with seats down), and can tow up to 8,500 lbs. It's basically an F150 with an SUV body. The new Expeditions are very different-looking (uglier in my view), but I presume similar in capability.