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Old 10-30-2020, 11:07 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by JeffreyG View Post
Same area, we fueled at the last stop north of Sault St. Marie and camped in the trailer at Rabbit Blanket. Our plan involved dropping off one car at Gargantua Harbor, then shuttling back up to Old Woman Bay and then paddling down the coast of Lake Superior one way.

With short legs, the choice was either bring jerry cans of fuel, or make the 40 mile RT detour up to Wawa to refuel as part of the shuttle drive.

We could have just done a round trip paddle, but actually getting around Cap Chaillon once turned out to be exciting enough given the weather.

Anyway.....I'll take a 36 gallon tank, or diesel towing efficiency, or both. Limited range is, well, limiting.
I haven’t seen anyone chime in yet on the GMC/Chevy “twins” with the baby Duramax. So far with 40,000+ miles, with about 1/3 of these miles towing a 19, I’ve been extremely happy with the combination. I have a Leer canopy with a rack that carries a small cataraft frame or canoe. I travel with 2 - 4 dogs. The payload on my particular truck is 1,390 lbs, which isn’t huge but adequate. My best estimates on tongue weight, weight of the canopy, passengers, dogs, and the stuff I bring is under that, but not by much.

The best part about the “twins”, in my opinion, other than their smaller size, is fuel efficiency. My truck averages 18 - 19 mpg on a typical trip, and these trips always involve towing up and down mountain grades in Idaho and Montana. Are there enhanced maintenance costs?? Yes, I have to dump 2 gallons of DEF into the truck every 1,500 miles or so. But it’s no big deal, and for me it’s been worth it to get that fuel efficiency. The truck gets 28 - 30 mpg not towing.

Anyway, I’ll just throw it out there. I nearly bought a F-150 3.5 ecoboost but changed my mind at the last minute. No regrets so far! I get that a lot of folks aren’t fans of diesels and are willing to accept low fuel efficiency as a tradeoff for towing a trailer. And absolutely, that is a tradeoff no matter what tow vehicle a person has. For me, however, the small diesel makes it more palatable.
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Old 10-30-2020, 12:27 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by salmo7000 View Post
I haven’t seen anyone chime in yet on the GMC/Chevy “twins” with the baby Duramax.
...

Are there enhanced maintenance costs?? Yes, I have to dump 2 gallons of DEF into the truck every 1,500 miles or so. But it’s no big deal, and for me it’s been worth it to get that fuel efficiency.
I don't see DEF as a significant cost, either; DEF consumption is typically expected to be about 1 gallon of DEF per 50 gallons of fuel, so the cost is not a big deal compared to the cost of fuel. The bigger diesel maintenance issue has always been in the fuel injection system, and now is in the emission control equipment (DPF, SCR system).
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Old 10-30-2020, 01:42 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by salmo7000 View Post
I haven’t seen anyone chime in yet on the GMC/Chevy “twins” with the baby Duramax. So far with 40,000+ miles, with about 1/3 of these miles towing a 19, I’ve been extremely happy with the combination. I have a Leer canopy with a rack that carries a small cataraft frame or canoe. I travel with 2 - 4 dogs. The payload on my particular truck is 1,390 lbs, which isn’t huge but adequate. My best estimates on tongue weight, weight of the canopy, passengers, dogs, and the stuff I bring is under that, but not by much.

The best part about the “twins”, in my opinion, other than their smaller size, is fuel efficiency. My truck averages 18 - 19 mpg on a typical trip, and these trips always involve towing up and down mountain grades in Idaho and Montana. Are there enhanced maintenance costs?? Yes, I have to dump 2 gallons of DEF into the truck every 1,500 miles or so. But it’s no big deal, and for me it’s been worth it to get that fuel efficiency. The truck gets 28 - 30 mpg not towing.

Anyway, I’ll just throw it out there. I nearly bought a F-150 3.5 ecoboost but changed my mind at the last minute. No regrets so far! I get that a lot of folks aren’t fans of diesels and are willing to accept low fuel efficiency as a tradeoff for towing a trailer. And absolutely, that is a tradeoff no matter what tow vehicle a person has. For me, however, the small diesel makes it more palatable.
I just want to confirm you mean Canyon/Colorado and not Sierra/Silverado.

My aim is a Canyon/Colorado towing an Escape 5.0, but with the 3.5 gas engine. I'm not particularly leery of DEF (now that I understand what it is and its purpose), but am leery of this as my daily drive in our cold Canadian winters, and of fuel availability compared to gas.

Am I wrong to prefer the gas version for this use? Other that that, I think the Canyon has the best mid-size truck (garage) specs for payload and towing capacity with a suitable box length and enough seating for grandpa, grandma and the two grandkids from time-to-time.

This has been an interesting thread to follow. Thanks...
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Old 10-30-2020, 02:00 PM   #44
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Steve I'm not sure I'd go with the 3.6l (not 3.5) in the small GM truck as it's normally aspirated and yes, with towing package you can pull 7000 lb. but to me that's not enough power. Even those who have towed (like Alf) with a 4.0l six have eventually moved onto something bigger in size.

Maybe someone who does tow an Escape with the smaller GM and 3.6l can comment?
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Old 10-30-2020, 02:03 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by camp4528 View Post
I just want to confirm you mean Canyon/Colorado and not Sierra/Silverado.

My aim is a Canyon/Colorado towing an Escape 5.0, but with the 3.5 gas engine. I'm not particularly leery of DEF (now that I understand what it is and its purpose), but am leery of this as my daily drive in our cold Canadian winters, and of fuel availability compared to gas.

Am I wrong to prefer the gas version for this use?
Are you aware that the 3.5 gas motor torque spec is 275 ft.lbs @4,000 rpms vs. 369 ft.lbs. @ 2000 rpms? Pretty significant especially since the 5.0 is the heaviest Escape trailer at this time.
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Old 10-30-2020, 02:11 PM   #46
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Thank you for posting your chart. I'm currently pulling a 17B with a diesel Grand Cherokee but looking at tow vehicles. I love my Jeep and have 130,000 miles on it now, about 50,000 of that with the trailer. Even with its towing capability and my smaller trailer I tend to have a lot of stuff, like kayak and rack and two dogs and tools and equipment for land management stuff at my property.

But, as Brian alluded to, I'm experiencing diesel exhaust filter problems and have had to drive an hour to a Jeep dealership near my property where I camp every month to have the diesel exhaust filter manually regenerated - three times in eight months. Weird that it won't regenerate and usually happens the next morning after I have driven 320 highway miles!

I think we've decided it was bad DEF since it has a shelf life and now that I've filled up with fresh I'm hoping that problem doesn't surface again. A new exhaust filter would be expensive. The Jeep uses 8 gallons of DEF approximately every 9,500 miles and if you don't drive a lot, it will "go bad". No way to drain it either, they tell me.

I'm interested in a Ford F150 (my brother has one a couple years old) and intrigued by the new hybrid engine coming out for 2021 but as you say, I may wait until the second or third production year. Not in a big hurry unless I have more Jeep troubles. I recently had to have the upper and lower oil pan gaskets replaced which took 12 days and a lot of $$$ since they had to lift the whole engine to get to it since it's 4WD.

I will be moving eventually to my acreage where I now camp and I need 4WD in that region and a truck bed would be nice for hauling kayaks since I'm close to the Ozark National Scenic Riverways. An F150 might be overkill for my trailer but so useful for other things.
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Old 10-30-2020, 03:23 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by camp4528 View Post
I just want to confirm you mean Canyon/Colorado and not Sierra/Silverado.
I'm sure that was the intention. The Sierra/Silverado are now available with a diesel, branded "Duramax" like all GM diesels, and only a bit bigger in displacement (3.0 vs 2.8 L), but a six-cylinder.

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Originally Posted by camp4528 View Post
My aim is a Canyon/Colorado towing an Escape 5.0, but with the 3.5 gas engine. I'm not particularly leery of DEF (now that I understand what it is and its purpose), but am leery of this as my daily drive in our cold Canadian winters, and of fuel availability compared to gas.
I wouldn't worry about starting a Colorado/Canyon diesel in winter - I haven't heard of any problems - and diesel is just about everywhere.

As already mentioned, the V6 gas engine in these trucks is a 3.6 litre. It is the GM High Feature engine, currently the LGZ variant.

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Originally Posted by camp4528 View Post
Am I wrong to prefer the gas version for this use?
No; it's a valid choice. The people who doing towing tests up the long grade to the Eisenhower tunnel (the "Ike Gauntlet" by TFL Truck) found the 3.6 was faster up the grade than the diesel; this gas engine is far more powerful than the diesel (over 300 horsepower versus about 180 hp). The gas engine will use more fuel than the diesel.
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Old 10-30-2020, 03:31 PM   #48
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Are you aware that the 3.5 gas motor torque spec is 275 ft.lbs @4,000 rpms vs. 369 ft.lbs. @ 2000 rpms?
True (although it's the 3.6), and that means that the 3.6 can put 50% more torque to the wheels at 4000 rpm than the diesel can at 2000 rpm, just by using the lower gear which results that higher engine speed. To match the diesel's performance the gas engine speed doesn't need to be that high: at just 3000 rpm (relaxed for that engine) the 3.6 can produce 248 lb-ft of torque, matching the torque to the wheels of the diesel at 2000 rpm.
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Old 10-30-2020, 03:36 PM   #49
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Canyon/Colorado Gas vs Diesel

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Originally Posted by emers382 View Post
Steve I'm not sure I'd go with the 3.6l (not 3.5) in the small GM truck as it's normally aspirated and yes, with towing package you can pull 7000 lb. but to me that's not enough power. Even those who have towed (like Alf) with a 4.0l six have eventually moved onto something bigger in size.

Maybe someone who does tow an Escape with the smaller GM and 3.6l can comment?
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Originally Posted by Rossue View Post
Are you aware that the 3.5 gas motor torque spec is 275 ft.lbs @4,000 rpms vs. 369 ft.lbs. @ 2000 rpms? Pretty significant especially since the 5.0 is the heaviest Escape trailer at this time.
Thanks to both of you for these very helpful comments to a complete towing neophyte.

I was basically drawn to the Horsepower specs (Gas 308 vs Diesel 181) and didn't really understand the role Diesel's higher torque plays in a towing situation. And perhaps still don't fully understand.

I'm not completely opposed to diesel, but would like the experts here to provide some insight on cold weather driving for short distances to the grocery store. I suppose I should also go to some of the Canyon/Colorado forums for this kind of information.

I would really like to end up with one vehicle and really liked my test drive of the gas 3.6 a few weeks ago. If I'm going to end up with a separate tow vehicle anyway, I would just cave and get an F-150 Ecoboost or similar and park it with the trailer. [End of whine]

Thanks again everyone. This whole RV investigation experience has taught me a lot, and continues to demonstrate that I know practically nothing.
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Old 10-30-2020, 03:45 PM   #50
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I was basically drawn to the Horsepower specs (Gas 308 vs Diesel 181) and didn't really understand the role Diesel's higher torque plays in a towing situation. And perhaps still don't fully understand..
Torque is just a force. Power is the rate at which work is being done. Simply put, the higher the power, the faster a heavy load can go up a hill.

Power is equal to the engine rpm times the torque (and constants, but ignore that). So you can get power at low torque and high rpm, or high torque and low(er) rpm.

To use the GM Colorado engines as an example, say you are cruising along at 2000 rpm and climb a hill. The 2.8 diesel can give you 369 ft-lbs @ 2000 rpm which is 140 horsepower. The 3.6 gas engine can only give you 225 ft.lbs at the same rpm, good for 85 hp. So if 140 hp will get you up the hill in question, the diesel will do it without a downshift. The gas engine would have to downshift to 2800 rpm to reach the same power.

On the other hand, imagine a really steep hill that needs 250 hp to climb. The gas engine could downshift to 4800 rpm, make the power and get you up the hill at speed.

The diesel simply cannot make more than 181 hp, so it will shift to 3500 rpm (where it makes 181 hp) but you will be slowing down. You just don't have enough power to climb that hill at that speed.

Typically all engines need to shift down in gear to increase engine speed to reach higher power level. But an engine with a high torque at low rpm will hold a high gear longer (because it makes more low rpm power) before it has to shift to get to where it makes the most power.
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Old 10-30-2020, 03:51 PM   #51
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But, as Brian alluded to, I'm experiencing diesel exhaust filter problems and have had to drive an hour to a Jeep dealership near my property where I camp every month to have the diesel exhaust filter manually regenerated - three times in eight months. Weird that it won't regenerate and usually happens the next morning after I have driven 320 highway miles!

I think we've decided it was bad DEF since it has a shelf life and now that I've filled up with fresh I'm hoping that problem doesn't surface again. A new exhaust filter would be expensive. The Jeep uses 8 gallons of DEF approximately every 9,500 miles and if you don't drive a lot, it will "go bad". No way to drain it either, they tell me.
The DEF is urea. It breaks down in the exhaust to make ammonia, which drives a reducing reaction for NO and NO2 on a catalyst called the SCR (selective catalytic reduction). If you got bad DEF (which I doubt, but you can change its concentration with sustained high ambient temperature) you will get NOx reduction or SCR conversion codes.....whatever FCA calls them but related to the SCR and NOx.

The DPF (diesel particulate filter) is a ceramic block that traps unburned carbon from the engine. Periodically there is an activity that makes the engine run hot to heat a DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst). More fuel is then burned on the DOC to heat the DPF to 550-600C. At this point the trapped carbon is burned off. DPF codes mean something is wrong with all that action to get things hot.

Or.....the DPF traps anything including ash from engine oil. So if you are burning a lot of oil or putting the wrong oil in the engine you can ash load the DPF and cause it to seem permanently full. In the Class 8 market we clean these filters. No idea on passenger car DPFs, they may be considered life of the vehicle.
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Old 10-30-2020, 04:50 PM   #52
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Thank you for posting your chart. I'm currently pulling a 17B with a diesel Grand Cherokee but looking at tow vehicles. I love my Jeep and have 130,000 miles on it now, about 50,000 of that with the trailer. Even with its towing capability and my smaller trailer I tend to have a lot of stuff, like kayak and rack and two dogs and tools and equipment for land management stuff at my property.

But, as Brian alluded to, I'm experiencing diesel exhaust filter problems and have had to drive an hour to a Jeep dealership near my property where I camp every month to have the diesel exhaust filter manually regenerated - three times in eight months. Weird that it won't regenerate and usually happens the next morning after I have driven 320 highway miles!

I think we've decided it was bad DEF since it has a shelf life and now that I've filled up with fresh I'm hoping that problem doesn't surface again. A new exhaust filter would be expensive. The Jeep uses 8 gallons of DEF approximately every 9,500 miles and if you don't drive a lot, it will "go bad". No way to drain it either, they tell me.

I'm interested in a Ford F150 (my brother has one a couple years old) and intrigued by the new hybrid engine coming out for 2021 but as you say, I may wait until the second or third production year. Not in a big hurry unless I have more Jeep troubles. I recently had to have the upper and lower oil pan gaskets replaced which took 12 days and a lot of $$$ since they had to lift the whole engine to get to it since it's 4WD.

I will be moving eventually to my acreage where I now camp and I need 4WD in that region and a truck bed would be nice for hauling kayaks since I'm close to the Ozark National Scenic Riverways. An F150 might be overkill for my trailer but so useful for other things.
As I recall from when I looked hard at the JGC diesels (2014-'15), FCA specified a special, low-ash synthetic engine oil. It was about $10/quart back then (versus maybe $5 for ordinary synthetic). It's just a thought, but what if the oil being put in your JGC isn't the low-ash variety? If you take it to a shop for oil changes, they might be 'cheaping out' on you (a non-FCA dealership might not even realize what they're doing).
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Old 10-30-2020, 04:57 PM   #53
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Gas vs Diesel. Torque vs Horsepower

Thanks to Brian BP (Sorry Brian, I missed your post before my earlier reply) and JeffreyG for the really clear explanations of all things engine.

I am a bit more reassured on my thoughts to get the 3.6 gas version when the time comes. As I said in an earlier post, I don't intend to drive up the side of Mt McKinley, but do want to feel that I'll be relatively safe towing the 5.0 with a GM mid-sized truck. The rubber will hit the road on that final decision (truck and engine) as I get closer to the 5.0 delivery date.

I did read the GM diesel manual a few weeks ago to try to understand DEF and that "burn the sh... out of everything" catalytic device and was a bit terrified by it all. Your explanations helped my understanding.

Thanks again all. Very, very useful to me.
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Old 10-30-2020, 05:28 PM   #54
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Thanks Jeffrey G and Mike G. I will for sure make sure I'm getting the right oil for my 2014 Jeep. I have always had the oil changes done at the Jeep dealerships hoping they would do it right. I never trusted anywhere else would have the right filter in stock. It's an expensive oil change so maybe that did reflect the low-ash synthetic oil.
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Old 10-30-2020, 05:34 PM   #55
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I am a bit more reassured on my thoughts to get the 3.6 gas version when the time comes. As I said in an earlier post, I don't intend to drive up the side of Mt McKinley, but do want to feel that I'll be relatively safe towing the 5.0 with a GM mid-sized truck. The rubber will hit the road on that final decision (truck and engine) as I get closer to the 5.0 delivery date.

The only two data points very specific to the Colorado engines:
1) The 2.8 diesel is heavier than the 3.6, but GM increased the spring rates and GVWR by 200 pounds so the cargo capacity should be the same between the engines.
2) The 2.8 diesel option in the Colorado automatically adds the tow package, includes the integrated brake controller, and increases the tow rating to 6700 pounds.

If you drive fast, like 75mph towing, you will prefer the 3.6 gas engine as it makes more power. Either way if you go that fast in almost any tow vehicle you will burn a lot of fuel.

If you are the kind of person that does not like it when engines downshift and rev a bit while towing (this does no harm, but it makes some people uncomfortable) then you will prefer the diesel.

Quote:
I did read the GM diesel manual a few weeks ago to try to understand DEF and that "burn the sh... out of everything" catalytic device and was a bit terrified by it all. Your explanations helped my understanding.
We released DPFs to the commercial truck market in 2007, and SCR in 2010. The learning curve of the entire trucking world was steep in understanding this stuff, but they're all comfortable now.
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Old 10-30-2020, 05:35 PM   #56
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The F150 is what I probably want. Better take the tape measure back into the garage and figure this out.



Don't forget to include your hitch ball setup, unless you plan on removing it when you garage the vehicle!
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Old 10-30-2020, 05:46 PM   #57
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We bought a 2019 GMC Canyon Denali Duramax Diesel last October...and LOVE IT!! It does everything we ask of it, and the fuel economy has been amazing. This past summer, we were out for a little over 2 weeks, covering about 1700 miles. We averaged about 21.3 mpg (US), significantly better than our RAV4 V6. That being said, we WERE towing a 2014 17B, which is some lighter than a current 19. However, my wife, who was pretty much a non-truck person, now LOVES HER truck! Go figure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Old 10-30-2020, 06:43 PM   #58
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Several years ago we were investigating Class B Rv's. A large number of them are built on the Mercedes Benz Sprinter chassis. While looking at reviews I came across an article by an owner of a trucking company who had almost 50 Sprinters over a seven year period. His article is titled "The Fatal Flaw of Mercedes Benz Sprinters. That flaw he says is "directly related to the components involved with their exhaust systems". He says the cost of maintaining and repairing them is "a staggering average of ten cents per mile. He says the average for Ram ProMaster and Ford Transit average two cents per mile. The reason these exhaust systems got so complicated is of course the strict EPA requirements for all diesels enacted in 2008.

I have a friend who sold his Sprinter recently and he told me it was a hassle to even get scheduled maintenance done at the local MB dealer as they only have one diesel mechanic. This isn't a one horse town. San Luis Obispo county is 283,00.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/fatal...tom-robertson/
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Old 10-30-2020, 07:40 PM   #59
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Don't forget to include your hitch ball setup, unless you plan on removing it when you garage the vehicle!
Yes, but you should remove the ball mount or WD hitch head between towing trips anyway.
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Old 10-30-2020, 07:53 PM   #60
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Yes, but you should remove the ball mount or WD hitch head between towing trips anyway.
I never leave a hitch in the receiver because I'm prone to slamming my legs into them
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