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Old 12-09-2020, 10:11 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike G View Post
.... will turbocharged engines have a shorter life than non-turbo engines? If so, has this ever been quantified in any manner?
Ah, a subject of great, if somewhat speculative (IMO), debate, especially among fans of naturally aspirated gasoline engines. It seems much of the 'argument' is often advanced based on notions about the effects of the higher underhood heat that's inherent with turbos and dealing with same.

But no, I've never found a compelling (e.g. controlled) study that supports the turbo nay-sayers.

Methinks that just like the many other advances designed to improve the efficiency of gasoline-fueled internal combustion engines (that is, technologies designed to get the most power out of the least displacement / fuel consumption, such as variable valve timing, direct injection, auto-cylinder / engine shut-down, etc), the key to achieving success (including good longevity) is proper overall design and implementation of those technologies to address the 'stresses' they impose.

Though not without some instances of foibles, Ford, for one, seems to be on the right track in that regard. If and when anyone does conduct a compelling study demonstrating otherwise it'll not only make for some interesting reading but generate marketing fodder for their competition, which seems lacking to date or we'd all likely be bombarded by that.

In the diesel arena, both mobile and stationary applications, turbocharging (or supercharging) is an almost universal aspect of implementations that demand extraordinary longevity; and turbocharging seems to be in favor for most of those applications.
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Old 12-09-2020, 10:25 PM   #142
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Seems like a turbo pushes an engine harder than it would be pushed in normal aspiration, so my question is, will turbocharged engines have a shorter life than non-turbo engines?
Yes, they're pushed harder, but the engine designer knows that and can select components (such as crankshafts and pistons) and supporting systems (such as the radiator and oil cooler) to suit that demand; it's not as much of a concern as it may initially appear.
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Old 12-09-2020, 10:27 PM   #143
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Bravo- very well said; eased my cognitive dissonance regarding my first turbocharged vehicle.
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Old 12-09-2020, 10:36 PM   #144
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For one thing the compression ratio is lower on a turbo motor.
The lower compression ratio has traditionally been required to avoid preignition (knock), but now direct fuel injection can be used to avoid preignition with higher compression ratios. The Ford EcoBoost engines, and similar designs from other manufacturers, combine direct injection with turbocharging, and run compression ratios which would not have been viable before gasoline direct injection.

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It is another thing to go wrong though, just like power windows.
True. Although turbochargers are inherently simple, they can have bearing failures - that used to be a significant problem.
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Old 12-09-2020, 10:44 PM   #145
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.... Although turbochargers are inherently simple, they can have bearing failures - that used to be a significant problem.
Yep, lubricants and metallurgy being among the technologies enjoying advances that make really efficient IC engines not only possible but reliable.
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Old 12-09-2020, 10:59 PM   #146
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high mileage turbocharged cars do tend to suffer with more leaks (additional lubrication and cooling of the turbo), and things like pressurized air intake systems being more likely to blow old plastic plumbing. intercoolers, etc.

a turbocharged car under boost has negative vacuum, eg, high pressure, so vacuum operated systems like power brakes, your HVAC controls, etc require either a separate source of vacuum such as an electric vacuum pump, or at least a reservoir which will hold sufficient vacuum under extended periods of high boost to allow those systems to keep working. this is added complexity, more plumbing, and more little plastic valves to fail with age and mileage.

also, PCV (crank case ventilation) becomes problematic under high boost, the increased pressure in the system is more likely to force oil out of the engine, again with high mileage and wear and tear. my 1992 Volvo 740 turbo wagon, with 250,000 miles, was known to push its dip stick up out of the oil tube, and spray oil on that side of the engine compartment if I was too heavy on the throttle going eastbound on I80 up and over the Sierras on a warm day and carrying a heavy load. I'd stop in truckee after climbing the Sierras at 80MPH+, and smoke would be pouring out from under the hood. kinda embarrassing.
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Old 12-09-2020, 11:09 PM   #147
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... my 1992 Volvo 740 turbo wagon ....
Methinks a lot of lessons have been learned and applied to yield better outcomes in the intervening ~40 years.
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Old 12-09-2020, 11:37 PM   #148
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Methinks a lot of lessons have been learned and applied to yield better outcomes in the intervening ~40 years.
sure. new turbos get better gas mileage, etc etc. but do we know how they will behave with 25 years of age and hard driving and 250,000+ miles? no, we don't.

fact is, the MOTOR on those early 1990s Volvo turbos were like bricks, very reliable and very long lived, Volvo started turbocharging their 'red block' 4 cyl motors in the early 80s so they had 10 years experience at it by the 90s.... So was the Aisin Warner (Toyota) transmission they used. And the Dana 30(?) rear differential. and the mostly Bosch engine electrics, injection, etc, were rock solid, too. it was all the rubber stuff outside the motor that becomes problematic with age. old crusty PCV valves, etc.
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Old 12-10-2020, 12:33 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz View Post
a turbocharged car under boost has negative vacuum, eg, high pressure, so vacuum operated systems like power brakes, your HVAC controls, etc require either a separate source of vacuum such as an electric vacuum pump, or at least a reservoir which will hold sufficient vacuum under extended periods of high boost to allow those systems to keep working. this is added complexity, more plumbing, and more little plastic valves to fail with age and mileage.
Fortunately, vacuum operated systems are well on their way out anyway, following the vacuum wipers that were superseded by electric in the 1960's. Vehicles with diesel engines and fully hydraulic brakes have needed non-vacuum systems all along, and heavier gas-engine vehicles (including Ford, GM, and Dodge/Ram trucks and large SUVs) and hybrids have also used "hydroboost" systems which assist the brakes with hydraulic pressure from the power steering pump (or a dedicated pump) for at least 25 years. But even power steering pumps have been on their way out for years, and now brakes are boosted directly by electric motors in many models - most obviously in EVs, but also in engine-driven cars; a common supplier is Bosch, with their iBooster in production since 2013.

HVAC control air vanes and fluid valves can be run electrically, and I assume that they routinely are now. As with the brakes, diesels, hybrids, and electric vehicles all need to be able to do this without vacuum.

So lack of vacuum was an issue with turbocharged vehicles, but doesn't need to be any more.
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Old 12-10-2020, 12:42 AM   #150
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I've been shopping for a newer car for my wife for the last several months...

she's had a 1994 Mercedes E320 Wagon for the past 10 or 12 years, it now has 280,000 miles. it's a 3.2L straight 6 DOHC with sequential (albeit not direct) injection, and was one of the very first chassis to have 5-way multilink rear suspension. it still runs great, but its needing more TLC, the bumper corners are dinged, some of the interior trim isn't quite nice anymore, etc. seats are still unripped, and offer good support, the engine is smooth and strong, and you can barely hear it running even at full pookah. it got a rebuilt transmission a few years ago, so thats good for another 20 years. the hydropneumatic self leveling rear suspension still works great, and gives a great ride. there are NO cup holders, and in fact, not even a decent place for the driver to put a water bottle on a long trip. the ride is limo smooth, while handling narrow twisty mountain roads nicely. it has about 220 HP and 220+ ft-lbs, so its no slouch. there are no body or interior rattles or buzzes, no wind noise until you are going nearly 100MPH, its just very quiet and refined inside.

but its getting older.

SOOO. We drove like 20 or 30 different new cars trying to figure out what my wife likes....
  1. Lexus RX360 - awful ride and driving vehicle on a bad road.
  2. 2020 Subaru Outback Limited - boring, quirky, don't trust CVT.
  3. 200? Infiniti G30 - too sporty for wife.
  4. 2016 Honda Accord V6 loaded. - awesome car, perfect low mileage single older owner car. powerful, smooth engine, nice automatic transmission, great controls, great steering. *AWFUL RIDE* on anything rough and bumpy. like riding on solid wheels over rough pavement.
  5. 2018 Mercedes GLE350 - big meh.
  6. 2020 BMW X1 - tiny sporty SUV. fun, but....
  7. 2020 BMW X3 - nicer, fun, but....
  8. 2020 Mazda CX-5 - really liked everything about this car at the price point. only downside was the seats, the thighs were too narrow for my wife and hurt after 20 minutes. bummer.
  9. Lexus LS430 - nice car but 10+ years old.
  10. Lexus LS460 (a couple different ones) newer version LS, but ride was too harsh.
  11. Lexus GS350 F-Sport (fun! comfort setting was smooth, sport setting was nailed down tight)
  12. 2014-2016 Mercedes E350 sedans - several 'sport' and one 'luxury'. NICE cars but awful rides from the /40 tires and AMG 18" wheels.
  13. 2020 Mazda 6 sedan - nice actually. probably was 2nd choice.
  14. 2016 Mercedes E350 wagon 'sport' (nice... but iBLACK high gloss, and its the 'sport' version which has stiffer suspension)

and I'm sure I forgot more than a few.

ended up buying a CPO car at a Mercedes dealer in another state, and did the deal entirely remotely.

2016 E350 "Luxury", white with beige mbtex interior. the 'luxury' has smoother ride, 17" wheels, and no AMG trim. CPO car with 3 years MBUSA full warranty, good at any dealer nationwide. 2016 was the last year of the direct injection 3.5L V6, next year E350 is a turbo 4 2.0L (and the E500 5L V8 is now a turbo 3.xL V6).

deal should complete and I should be able to scheduler the shipper for next week, gets here 2-3 days after pickup, covered delivery.

her current car


the new one




I toyed with getting a 1991 Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser or Buick Roadmaster, and dropping a chevy crate motor in it with a matching 8L90E (8 speed), complete new sound proofing, carpet, leather upholstery. nice hifi stereo. air springs and coilovers... dial the ride you want, smooth or nasty. probably would have cost as much as the benz to do right. would be a pretty cool ride, and with the right springs and shocks, could probably tow a good sized Escape, mua-hah-ha.
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Old 12-10-2020, 01:04 AM   #151
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Fortunately, vacuum operated systems are well on their way out anyway,...
So lack of vacuum was an issue with turbocharged vehicles, but doesn't need to be any more.
true enough. my '02 Ford 7.3 Powerstroke uses an electric vacuum pump and plastic 'bottle' to run the HVAC and front hub lockers (4x4). I know this because a #@$@#$ wood rat ate a bunch of hte hose and chewed the nipples right off the pump so I had to replace the whole $#@$ thing. I found a good one on fleabay for cheap, so easy enough.
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Old 12-10-2020, 01:51 AM   #152
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Nice, though I would have driven a Toyota Avalon
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Old 12-10-2020, 03:13 AM   #153
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Oh, I forgot the Lexus ES. what a *boring* car. i really don't much like how FWD cars drive we had a Camry, also a very boring car.
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Old 12-10-2020, 05:56 AM   #154
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If you get the E350, for sure get the 17" wheels. All of our engineers drive M-B cars because we are Daimler and have an employee lease program. All of the M-B cars with upsized wheels are prone to killing wheels on potholes here in Detroit, but the E-class cars with the biggest wheels seem to be the worst offenders. If you stick to the base wheels with some actual rubber around them they are fine. But the big wheels / rubber band sets will almost never get through pothole season without killing at least one.

We've had guys call in - "Killed both wheels on the passenger side. Waiting on a tow truck, I'll be in late."

This "huge wheel, no rubber" idiocy can end any time as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 12-10-2020, 06:54 AM   #155
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This "huge wheel, no rubber" idiocy can end any time as far as I'm concerned.
Hear Hear
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Old 12-10-2020, 07:36 AM   #156
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John,

That's a great looking car. Certified PreOwned is the way to go.

Our two Audi A6s were bought that way, and I helped friends and relatives with three other CPO purchases.

The challenge it to never tell your friends what year it is--it looks new, and never tell them you paid less than half the new price. Let them think you splurged.

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Old 12-10-2020, 08:37 AM   #157
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Ah, a subject of great, if somewhat speculative (IMO), debate, especially among fans of naturally aspirated gasoline engines. It seems much of the 'argument' is often advanced based on notions about the effects of the higher underhood heat that's inherent with turbos and dealing with same.

But no, I've never found a compelling (e.g. controlled) study that supports the turbo nay-sayers.
My buddy at work LOVED his Ecoboost Ford F150, towed his camper like a dream...until it blew up on him. His new F150 has the 5.0L V8. He says it isn't as good at towing but gets the job done and he is pretty confident it will last longer.

Of course, that is only one data point.
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Old 12-10-2020, 08:46 AM   #158
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My buddy at work LOVED his Ecoboost Ford F150, towed his camper like a dream...until it blew up on him. His new F150 has the 5.0L V8. He says it isn't as good at towing but gets the job done and he is pretty confident it will last longer.

Of course, that is only one data point.

Yeah, just anecdotal. But in general turbocharging (or more accurately for the concern, high BMEP engines) can be durable. HD diesel engines in class 8 tractors are all turbocharged and run 26-30 kind of BMEP and they are expected to last at least 1 million miles to the first overhaul.


Passcar engine lifetime to wearout is probably much more a balance between cost target and durability target than it is a question of technology / BMEP vs. durability targets.


What this means is, as an engine developer I don't see any technical reason a smaller turbo engine at higher BMEP cannot be just as durable as a larger lower BMEP engine. Now at equal cost? Maybe. A turbo is an added expense, but a smaller engine with less cylinders is also lower cost. But then if I need to improve the spec of the rings, pistons, bearings for higher BMEP, the cost goes back up. In the end, it is going to be very specific to each design.
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Old 12-10-2020, 09:04 AM   #159
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Left to their own devices I have no doubt the engineers can design a reliable turbo engine...but they by no means are left to do whatever they want. They are under enormous pressure (no pun intended) to make it inexpensive as well, which means they have to pick and choose their compromises. This is nothing new, and is the way of all things in the engineering trade.

I have no doubt the manufacturers have learned a lot about turbo motors over the years, and I wouldn't necessarily dismiss a vehicle because it is turbocharged. But naturally aspirated motors have advanced a lot too. I have an unprovable feeling the 4.0L (not a new design by any means) in my FJ Cruiser will outlast the rest of the vehicle by a fair margin. Even after 130,000 miles it doesn't burn a drop of oil, even with 0W-20 synthetic oil and 10,000 mile change intervals. I value that rock-solid reliability.
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Old 12-10-2020, 09:38 AM   #160
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It's hard to ignore the superior performance and efficiency of the turbo engines though. For example, the Ford 3.5L offers 24% more torque than the 5.0L V8, same power (at sea level), will retain that power much better at altitude. Meanwhile the 5.0L V8 burns 20% more fuel.

At the end of the day what makes or breaks an engine is usually tied to some kind of 'stupid' design mistake rather than whether it is turbocharged, or what the peak BMEP is. Some great examples here are the GM 3.1L V6 which was notorious for an intake manifold gasket failure that would leak coolant into the oil and kill the engine. FSA had an I-4 engine in the Sebring (among others) that had a bad timing belt tensioner design that could lead to catastrophic engine failure. Toyota had the sludging issue. If you are going to have an engine problem, it's likely going to be some version of this kind of 'stupid' than whether the engine is turbocharged or not.
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