Tesla truck to revolutionize RV towing?

[yangstyle]

While I like the idea of EV's I think that in the early stages at least they will be mostly popular nearby large cities and towns that can afford to upgrade their infrastructure to accommodate the extra electrical load these vehicles will put on the grid. Although this was our first year towing we camped from Chilliwack to Ottawa and a lot of the campgrounds, especially in the out of the way areas, did not even have power for the campsites let alone tow vehicles. I also hope that people do not end up using EV's and charging them with generators as I find generators generally noisy and not what I like to hear while camping.

[gbaglo]

Ever heard "if is sounds too good to be true"?
I didn't make it to the end of the article. I'll wait to see if this is the Bitcoin of battery technology.

[mtnest]

Electric vehicles are clearly in the future. The signs are everywhere if one is paying attention. Earlier this year Rivian announced it was designing and building 100,000 delivery vans exclusively for Amazon with the first to be on the street in 2021. Our next car will likely be an EV. If I'm not mistaken the average daily commute in the U.S. is under 60 miles. -Tom

[Bakes99]

Range anxiety will never be more real than towing with an electric vehicle. Like someone already stated, and has been tested with the Tesla X, you’ll be lucky to get a 1/2 to a 1/3 the mileage when towing with an electric vehicle.

[Bakes99]

That being said, I really want one, lol.

[Mike Lewis]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Unfortunately, what Musk promises is rarely true. If the promised cost or performance is delivered, it is years after it was supposed to be available. If you doubt this, try to find someone who actually bought a Tesla Model 3 for $35K USD... ever, let alone when the Model 3 was introduced.

Yeah, Musk has a salesman's blather when it comes to Tesla, but his SpaceX company has done some amazing stuff. Seeing two of those Falcon boosters come back to earth and land simultaneously is an amazing sight, right out of Buck Rogers. I never thought I'd see anything like it.

[Catchlight]

I just talked with a friend who sells Ford cars and trucks and he said that the company will have hybrid and a plug-in hybrid models of the F-150 out by next year, and an electric version by 2022.

Their competitors will also be active in trying to maintain or increase their share of a rapidly changing market.

[gbaglo]

For balance, I have to admit that I have 'range anxiety' with my RAV4. It has a 60 litre gas tank and uses 15 litres / 100 kilometres when towing. I gas up at every opportunity. However that takes less than five minutes. I know there are electric fast chargers, but when everybody buys EV and there is a line up at the charging station, and you have to run the car to stay warm . . . or cool...

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Catchlight

I just talked with a friend who sells Ford cars and trucks and he said that the company will have hybrid and a plug-in hybrid models of the F-150 out by next year, and an electric version by 2022.

Yes, the time seems to have come for that, and a plug-in hybrid pickup could be handy. Ford already has suitable plug-in hybrid powertrain components in production in the Explorer/Aviator. GM has already announced their electric pickup plans; whether Ford or GM is first, the other may match them or may wait years.

Ford made some sort of deal with Rivian, presumably to use them as an EV powertrain component supplier.

Originally Posted by Catchlight

Their competitors will also be active in trying to maintain or increase their share of a rapidly changing market.

The full-size pickup market is certainly competitive, but there are significant technical features which are not (or at least not quickly) echoed by other brands. No competitor responded to the advanced hybrids sold by GM over a decade ago, and Ram still has the only mild hybrid.

No matter how many manufacturers jump in, their initial products may or may not be useful for towing a travel trailer. It will be interesting to see what shakes out...

[stratos175]

In the part of Georgia we live in you see 10 Tesla's at least a day, Nissan Leafs are everywhere. My brother worked for a Nissan dealership here for many years and for 2 years i think it was they sold more Leaf's then any dealer in the nation. I remember once he told me they sold 40 in one day!!!! GA had a tax credit (think it was $5,000) it was easy to do the math and see you could basically drive the car for free with what you save in gas included in that.
I know car sales are down a good bit this year, we just purchased a used 2014 Armada and while talking to several dealers they say part of the blame they think for the slow down is people waiting for electric car options. I had one say they make them to good the last 5-7 years so people just keep them, going to take an advanced change with electric cars to save the average dealer.
I'm with the crowd no doubt its coming, will be interesting to see once it does get rolling.

Enjoy the journey.

Steve

[Mike Lewis]

I was skeptical about the hybrids when the Toyota Prius came out. Its drivetrain seemed too complex; I wondered why they didn't just have a big battery pack powered by a gasoline engine/generator when needed, then use electric motors to drive the wheels all the time. Later the Chevy Volt did this. It seems simpler to me.

I was also concerned about battery longevity and how it would affect resale value. So were some Toyota dealers. But I have a friend in Maryland where I used to live who kept his Prius for fifteen years. He told me he had only a slight decrease in gas mileage over time and intended to buy a new Prius. My friends down here wouldn't be caught dead in one, however.

[gbaglo]

Another issue I've heard discussed is poor resale value of electric cars. Buyers want the latest technology, so used is devalued. New KIA has double the range of previous model. So who wants an old one?

[cpaharley2008]

It had to happen, first the trucks and now the horse....going to keep my 5.0 GT, maybe worth more now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0F9Uktpgtk

[Mike Lewis]

Originally Posted by yangstyle

While I like the idea of EV's I think that in the early stages at least they will be mostly popular nearby large cities and towns that can afford to upgrade their infrastructure to accommodate the extra electrical load these vehicles will put on the grid.

Since most EVs, especially fleet vehicles, will be charged up at night when overall electrical usage is down, the extra burden on electrical grids may not be significant.

As for rural areas, their electrical grids are pretty robust capacity-wise, as they have to handle electrical farm equipment, etc. that is also used mostly during the day. Where rural areas have problems (at least around here) is in surges induced in overhead wires by lightning strikes. I'd be really unhappy if I bought an EV and had it taken out by lightning when it was charging up. I'd have every available surge protection on that circuit.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

I was skeptical about the hybrids when the Toyota Prius came out. Its drivetrain seemed too complex; I wondered why they didn't just have a big battery pack powered by a gasoline engine/generator when needed, then use electric motors to drive the wheels all the time. Later the Chevy Volt did this. It seems simpler to me.

That describes a series hybrid configuration. It has not been a popular choice for a couple of reasons, one of which is inefficiency: all of the engine's power needs to be converted to electricity and back to mechanical power, and each conversion is less efficient than a mechanical transmission.

The Prius design (called a "power split transmission") is actually very simple, with the two motor-generators and one planetary gearset - no clutches or shifting mechanisms. That's one reason that Toyota hybrids have proven to be extremely reliable.

The Volt has a much more complex system with two planetary gearsets and clutches. It can run as a series hybrid, but usually runs in a power split mode. The first and second generation Volts are different in details, but generally similar in components and operating modes. GM marketing people and technically ignorant article writers caused huge confusion by blathering about the engine "only charging the battery", which is simply nonsense; it seems to have been started by GM's desire to call the Volt an "electric vehicle", rather than a "plug-in hybrid".

The Honda Accord and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV run as series hybrids at lower speeds, but have a clutch to connect the engine to the output mechanically so they run as a parallel hybrid with a one-speed mechanical transmission at highway speed. The BMW i3 REX has been (it is going out of production) the only true series hybrid available in North America. They actually are simple, but they require large motors and generators to be workable.

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

I was also concerned about battery longevity and how it would affect resale value. So were some Toyota dealers. But I have a friend in Maryland where I used to live who kept his Prius for fifteen years. He told me he had only a slight decrease in gas mileage over time and intended to buy a new Prius. My friends down here wouldn't be caught dead in one, however.

Battery reliability is very good in hybrids, in part because they manage the battery conservatively, never going to very high or very low states of charge. EVs are not as good, because to achieve the desired range they push the battery capacity as much as they dare. They also use different battery types: non-plug-in hybrids generally still use nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) cells, while battery-electric vehicles use various lithium ion types.

[arniesea]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That describes a series hybrid configuration. It has not been a popular choice for a couple of reasons, one of which is inefficiency: all of the engine's power needs to be converted to electricity and back to mechanical power, and each conversion is less efficient than a mechanical transmission.

The Prius design (called a "power split transmission") is actually very simple, with the two motor-generators and one planetary gearset - no clutches or shifting mechanisms. That's one reason that Toyota hybrids have proven to be extremely reliable.

Battery reliability is very good in hybrids, in part because they manage the battery conservatively, never going to very high or very low states of charge. EVs are not as good, because to achieve the desired range they push the battery capacity as much as they dare. They also use different battery types: non-plug-in hybrids generally still use nickel-metal hydride (NiMH) cells, while battery-electric vehicles use various lithium ion types.

The Power Split PHEV technology is what attracted us to our first Prius. We have owned a 2007, 2010 and now a 2018 Camry Hybrid XLE. All have been extremely reliable. They also handle much better than most cars because they have almost a 50 / 50 weight distribution front to rear. (The drive battery is just behind the rear seat.)

I for one am looking forward to the rumored 2021 Tundra hybrid. (Toyota is almost as tight lipped as Apple releasing information about new products!) It is rumored to have a drive motor for each wheel with a V6 power plant. We will see ...

[Catchlight]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

Another issue I've heard discussed is poor resale value of electric cars. Buyers want the latest technology, so used is devalued. New KIA has double the range of previous model. So who wants an old one?

Totally agree. When my wife's 2002 Camry packed it in recently we test-drove the Hyundai Kona and Ionic EVs and liked the Kona quite well. But despite the federal and provincial EV incentives totalling $10000 we bought a 2019 Toyota RAV4 hybrid to keep range anxiety and rapid obsolescence and depreciation out of our lives.

[Mike Lewis]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That describes a series hybrid configuration. It has not been a popular choice for a couple of reasons, one of which is inefficiency: all of the engine's power needs to be converted to electricity and back to mechanical power, and each conversion is less efficient than a mechanical transmission.

I assumed the opposite, that electric generators/motors were more efficient than sending power through a mechanical drivetrain, probably because of the existence of diesel-electric locomotives. Thanks for the info.

As for durability, I remember reading that the Prius battery never charges above 60% or drains below 40%, or something similar. In the article I linked about Tesla durability, I was surprised to see such a low rate of battery failure after hundreds of thousands of miles. Tesla has been around long enough that I'd like to see what percentage of them are still on the road, not counting the ones that decide to drive themselves into a truck, etc.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by jamie beers

press on new battery technology

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arging-it.html

note that is not a rechargeable battery. you use it up, you remove it and install new batteries, and the old batteries have to be recycled. The aluminum is turned into aluminum oxide when the battery generates power. He boasts this single use battery costs 1/6th what the Tesla battery costs, but that Tesla battery can be recharged 1000s of times...

btw, Aluminum-Air batteries have been around for quite awhile. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumin...%93air_battery

[blue_bullet]

If we all switch to EVs who will pay for maintenance of roadways collected in part thru state/federal gasoline/diesel tax? Maybe that's why the PRCA wants a gps installed in every vehicle. Perhaps a surcharge on the way we use electricity.