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Old 04-22-2021, 10:58 PM   #121
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FYI - CarFax started reporting in 1984. It can provide a useful datapoint, particularly if negative. Beyond that, your mileage may vary...
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Old 04-23-2021, 06:37 AM   #122
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Having owned a 2015 F-150 which was apparently fried by EMP from a nearby lightning strike, which was in and out of the shop for 4-1/2 months, being told that “it won’t set a code” at least 30 times, and with repeated diagnoses that were really “shots in the dark,” I cringe when I see people paying over $50K for new vehicles, meant for towing or not.
The truth here is that we no longer drive mechanical vehicles, they are essentially big, heavy computers with some mechanical components. In the home, you can pretty much protect your computer with a good surge suppressor or by unplugging it when not in use. And even if it does get zapped, totally destroyed, it doesn’t cost an arm and a leg to replace. And even if a desktop or a laptop looses 50% of its worth in two or three years (depreciation), do you really care?
I kept getting told by the dealership that lightning typically wipes everything out, melting components, so my troubles couldn’t be caused by lightning and no insurance claim was filed. After 4-1/2 months, they conceded that perhaps EMP might have selectively damaged some of the electronics (but we cant figure out which ones, if one reads between the lines).
At invoice price, it cost me $36,000 to replace the 2015 with a specially ordered 2020 F-150. Do I like it better? Yes, improvements and upgrades are made every model year. Was I happy about having to shell out $36K, absolutely not. What aggravates me is that Ford (and all the vehicle manufactures) are selling electronic monstrosities which are far less reliable than their pre-2000 counterparts and they cannot seem to diagnose problems when they occur. When was the last time you had a television repaired? Long time ago, right? Television have become relatively inexpensive so when they fail, you throw them away and buy a new one. Prices keep rising on INCREASINGLY FRAGILE vehicles, and it seems that we are approaching a point in time when, like televisions, vehicles will simply be discarded (recycled for the good parts). That becomes an expensive approach for the consumer.
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Old 04-23-2021, 08:20 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by C&G in FL View Post
Having owned a 2015 F-150 which was apparently fried by EMP from a nearby lightning strike, which was in and out of the shop for 4-1/2 months, being told that “it won’t set a code” at least 30 times, and with repeated diagnoses that were really “shots in the dark,” I cringe when I see people paying over $50K for new vehicles, meant for towing or not.
The truth here is that we no longer drive mechanical vehicles, they are essentially big, heavy computers with some mechanical components. In the home, you can pretty much protect your computer with a good surge suppressor or by unplugging it when not in use. And even if it does get zapped, totally destroyed, it doesn’t cost an arm and a leg to replace. And even if a desktop or a laptop looses 50% of its worth in two or three years (depreciation), do you really care.
I kept getting told by the dealership that lightning typically wipes everything out, melting components, so my troubles couldn’t be caused by lightning and no insurance claim was filed. After 4-1/2 months, they conceded that perhaps EMP might have selectively damaged some of the electronics (but we cant figure out which ones, if one reads between the lines).
At invoice price, it cost me $36,000 to replace the 2015 with a specially ordered 2020 F-150. Do I like it better? Yes, improvements and upgrades are made every model year. Was I happy about having to shell out $36K, absolutely not. What aggravates me is that Ford (and all the vehicle manufactures) are selling electronic monstrosities which are far less reliable than their pre-2000 counterparts and they cannot seem to diagnose problems when they occur. When was the last time you had a television repaired? Long time ago, right? Television have become relatively inexpensive so when they fail, you throw them away and buy a new one. Prices keep rising on INCREASINGLY FRAGILE vehicles, and it seems that we are approaching a point in time when, like televisions, vehicles will simply be discarded (recycled for the good parts). That becomes an expensive approach for the consumer.
Hi: C&G in FL... Well said. What peeves me even more is that those on board c'puters can be accessed by Police, Insurance, and Stealerships to know how you... pilot the pile, and used against you in a court of law if need be. "Big brother is watching you". Remember that 2-3 grand of the price of each new vehicle goes to fund the health care and pensions of those who build them. Everybody should be so lucky. Alf
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Old 04-23-2021, 09:20 AM   #124
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Remember that 2-3 grand of the price of each new vehicle goes to fund the health care and pensions of those who build them. Everybody should be so lucky. Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie

I'm always astounded when people complain that others get a decent wage and a pension, suggesting that they should be screwed by their employer, in a race for the bottom.
I paid union dues and I'm sure happy that I did.
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Old 04-23-2021, 10:06 AM   #125
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Can an owner send a sample on their into a lab? It would be too slow when buying used but still good to know for ones own peace of mind about the condition of their vehicle.

I too am slowly shifting towards buying new. Lots of info being provided on here about how F150s aren't actually that much new. I think I could justify $40k if it was my commuter too. Just can't justify that cost if it's a 3rd vehicle for trips and home depot runs only.
Anyone can send in a sample from engine oil, transmission fluid, and differential fluid. I don't have a recommendation for a lab, however I recall a discussion on this forum.

If you are thinking new F-150 I recommend checking some of your local dealer websites to see what inventory they have. A 2021 model is not going to be discounted, however the "new" 2020 models should be deeply discounted as in the link I sent you for Team Ford in Las Vegas. Also interest rates are really low now. I'm glad I bought mine last September before I got my 21C because I was able to send the truck's hitch height to ETI so they could set up the E2 WDH properly for me.
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Old 04-23-2021, 10:54 AM   #126
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I'm always astounded when people complain that others get a decent wage and a pension, suggesting that they should be screwed by their employer, in a race for the bottom.
I paid union dues and I'm sure happy that I did.

Good paying jobs usually touted as a great thing.....that's where you get a middle class from, after all.


Usually you hear the opposite, people complaining when the work is sent overseas to poorly paid workers elsewhere eliminating jobs for the local workers.
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Old 04-23-2021, 11:19 AM   #127
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Usually you hear the opposite, people complaining when the work is sent overseas to poorly paid workers elsewhere eliminating jobs for the local workers.

You hear that too. Often from the same people that complain that others get pensions.
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Old 04-23-2021, 11:29 AM   #128
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I agree that Carfax provides a valuable resource, however it doesn't tell the whole story. Here's my example. I bought a new 2011 Mercedes E350 diesel in Cincinnati. It never saw rain, snow or was driven on salted roads. Won't see that in Carfax. It was taken to the dealer for every service required in the Owner's Manual. Will see that in Carfax. I moved to Las Vegas area. Car started having problems. It had to be towed 95 miles from my house to the dealer in Las Vegas because it wasn't producing enough power to drive. Won't see that in Carfax. Problem was fixed at dealer. Will see that in Carfax. Drove car to Denver in summer. Check engine light came on. Took to dealer. Diagnostic check ran. Safe to drive home. Won't see that in Carfax because dealer didn't do any work. Got home, dealer repaired problem. Will see that in Carfax. Starting taking car to independent repair shop to fix problem after problem. Won't see that in Carfax. At 59K miles, and a major oil leak I sold the car to Carmax in Vegas. Independent repair shop fixed oil leak for $1500 before I sold it. The independent repair shop told me the next thing to fail would be the turbocharger based upon their experience. Won't see that in Carfax. In summary, at 59K miles that Mercedes was a piece of junk, in which I had no confidence it would not die on me in the middle of nowhere. Carmax checked the Carfax report. Carfax didn't show the complete picture!
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Old 04-23-2021, 11:38 AM   #129
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You hear that too. Often from the same people that complain that others get pensions.
Hi: gbaglo... I'm not complain'n I paid my dues; I get my pension. It's just when I got to "Middle class" they cancelled it!!! Alf
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Old 04-23-2021, 12:08 PM   #130
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I'm always astounded when people complain that others get a decent wage and a pension, suggesting that they should be screwed by their employer, in a race for the bottom.
I paid union dues and I'm sure happy that I did.
Hear Hear! Gbaldo. Everybody really should be so lucky!
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Old 04-23-2021, 12:29 PM   #131
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Recent experience

(I didn't read this long thread - replying to original post.)

We were in the market for a new E19 last fall; ended up with a used E21C. In between ordering the new and buying used, we sold our old minivan and Jeep Wrangler, neither suitable for a large trailer, and went shopping.

We looked at a pickup truck, but the straight backed rear seats were not suitable for a long road trip with passengers. We already leaned toward an SUV for more secure cargo, so that terrible backseat nixed the pickup (a Nisson Frontier?). Limits for us included a vehicle length limit to get around my property, and 4x4 for off-roading adventures.

We started with a 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Buying used from CarMax means that we get a 90 day guarantee. Indeed we had some trouble with that vehicle, and after a couple weeks of CarMax trying to repair it (at no cost), we returned it and bought a far better 2014 model that came available. Price was around $20k with something like 70,000 miles and excellent condition! Do be sure to get the tow package when dealing with an SUV (beefer alternator and radiator fan, not just a hitch).

This seems like a perfect fit for you as well. Just contact Carmax (or similar) with what you want. They'll even find vehicles within a radius and bring them local for you to check out. There are other similar companies. You might get something a little cheaper from a private party sale, but then you'll be on your own with any surprises.
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Old 04-23-2021, 12:34 PM   #132
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I'm always astounded when people complain that others get a decent wage and a pension, suggesting that they should be screwed by their employer, in a race for the bottom.
I paid union dues and I'm sure happy that I did.


I find it comical that some folks can support Escapes new management groups strategy to profiteer off your backs while others complain when a Union forces the employers hand to "Share" that profiteering.

Greed is the root of all evil!
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Old 04-23-2021, 01:38 PM   #133
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I agree that Carfax provides a valuable resource, however it doesn't tell the whole story. Here's my example. I bought a new 2011 Mercedes E350 diesel in Cincinnati. It never saw rain, snow or was driven on salted roads. Won't see that in Carfax. It was taken to the dealer for every service required in the Owner's Manual. Will see that in Carfax. I moved to Las Vegas area. Car started having problems. It had to be towed 95 miles from my house to the dealer in Las Vegas because it wasn't producing enough power to drive. Won't see that in Carfax. Problem was fixed at dealer. Will see that in Carfax. Drove car to Denver in summer. Check engine light came on. Took to dealer. Diagnostic check ran. Safe to drive home. Won't see that in Carfax because dealer didn't do any work. Got home, dealer repaired problem. Will see that in Carfax. Starting taking car to independent repair shop to fix problem after problem. Won't see that in Carfax. At 59K miles, and a major oil leak I sold the car to Carmax in Vegas. Independent repair shop fixed oil leak for $1500 before I sold it. The independent repair shop told me the next thing to fail would be the turbocharger based upon their experience. In summary, at 59K miles that Mercedes was a piece of junk, in which I had no confidence it would not die on me in the middle of nowhere. Carmax checked the Carfax report. Carfax didn't show the complete picture!
Agreed... There is no perfect solution.

All one can do is to use all of the tools available to them in an attempt to determine how well a car was taken care of and also if that model of vehicle has a known history of weaknesses that may cost you big $$$. To counter this you can always buy used vehicles that still have factory warranty remaining. Dealers will also offer an extended warranty to purchase along with the used vehicle for those people that are really concerned about reliability.
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Old 04-23-2021, 02:00 PM   #134
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We bought a 2016 F-150 XLT Supercab with a 5.0 Coyote Engine and a Max Tow Package with 22,000 miles here in AZ for $25,000. Maybe you should consider looking outside of your current state. There are a lot of vehicles to be had here and you have the benefit that they have not been in snow, rain, etc. and are rust free! We will be towing our 21NE that we currently have on order.
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Old 04-23-2021, 02:34 PM   #135
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Carfax is interesting, and can be useful, but is very far from a complete report of the vehicle's history. The level of detail depends on location, but here in Alberta it will get you (judging from the reports that I have seen) nothing except registration changes and insurance claims. It will provide no indication of any work done on the vehicle other than as an insured repair, even if the work was done by a dealership, and that includes major body damage and any level of mechanical work.

The problem is that Carfax needs data sources, and while some government registration agencies and some insurance companies provide reports, no one has to and repair shops normally don't.

It's probably worth the $50 for a vehicle that is being seriously considered for purchase,, but it's very often (and probably normally) not what the Carfax advertisements suggest that it is.
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Old 04-23-2021, 02:57 PM   #136
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It's probably worth the $50 for a vehicle that is being seriously considered for purchase,, but it's very often (and probably normally) not what the Carfax advertisements suggest that it is.
Luckily around here the majority of dealers provide links to the carfax report for free. I've never paid for the report.
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Old 04-28-2021, 11:19 AM   #137
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Hey Michael. Thought I would chime in on this one since we are first-timers and just started enjoying our 21C with toddler, baby and one dog in October (and live in Seattle!) and went through the same TV dilemma. I agree traditional TVs are a bummer--expensive, bad gas mileage when not towing, and not really optimized for a big family with car seats, driving in a city, etc. After a lot of research (including the used Mercedes/Lexus SUVs), we ended up getting a Certified Pre-owned 2020 Nissan Pathfinder with low miles for under $30k. Depending on the trim package and add-ons you want, it can range from $20-40k, but ours is a "Rock Creek edition" that sits comfortably in the middle and is pre-equipped with the tow package rated to 6000lbs, 600lbs tongue weight.

Is it our dream car? No. But it does strike a great balance of family car most of the time with the ability to competently/safely tow when needed. AWD, ~25mpg when not towing/15 when towing the 21C, hidden third row seat, second row is spacious enough for two Diono behemoth car seats while full-sized adults can still fit in the front row with pups in the cargo area.

As far as towing performance, we took a dozen trips up and down the I-5 corridor this winter. I am more than confident that it is enough vehicle for these flat-land trips. Currently running on just a ball hitch, with the Curt Echo brake controller (plug and play in the 7-pin connector, so no need to pay for installation of manual brake controller in the TV until you're committed to the vehicle and lifestyle). Haven't had any issues with porpoising or sway. Never lacked confidence with stopping power. You do notice a little when a big rig barrels past you in the left lane (it's I-5 after all...), but again never lost confidence in the safety of our setup.

We also just relocated to Bozeman, MT for a couple months, so finally have some experience with winding mountain passes up to 4700 ft. Even with water tank 2/3 full, we had no problem with the passes. Never went above 4000RPM or under 50mph. Downhills weren't as white-knuckle as expected either. Hardest part was probably that we got hammered with strong side winds for a lot of Idaho and western MT before Missoula, but even then the trailer held steady.

Planning an oil change/service later this week, so will update if the mechanic is like "holy S*%T, your transmission/brakes/shocks are shot!". =) As of right now though, we are very happy with our decision. If I were full-timing it or hitting the higher passes in CO frequently I would probably get something more powerful, but it definitely suits our current needs.

I'll also give my two cents that with two kiddos and a dog, we would feel pretty claustrophobic in a 19. If you're only summer/good-weather camping a 19 would probably be fine, but the 21 has served us quite well in the PNW weather when spending most of the day indoors due to rain/snow. It also lets us "host" dinner when grandma, aunt and uncle are cabin camping next door.
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Old 04-28-2021, 11:24 AM   #138
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I'm always astounded when people complain that others get a decent wage and a pension, suggesting that they should be screwed by their employer, in a race for the bottom.
I paid union dues and I'm sure happy that I did.
I whole hardly agree, all working people should have. a decent wage and chance to retire. The whole I got mine mentality is depressing.
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Old 04-28-2021, 11:41 AM   #139
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This is all great info thank you! I didn't know the newer pathfinder could tow 6,000lbs. I wish there was a website somewhere where you could filter for vehicles that tow over a certain amount and their payload. It gets so frustrating googling makes abd models to see tow and payload capacity. Especially since it changes so much per year.

I will research the pathfinder, seems like it could work. I'm also seriously considering an early 2000's expedition. They don't hold their resale value and KBB on one with lower miles (80k) is only like $7-8k. Hard to find one with that low of miles that isn't either snapped up right away though. I also groan at the thought of only getting 15mpg not towing ( not sure what mpg would be towing).

Thanks for info about the size of 21 and having enough room for staying inside during rainy weather. Pretty sure they will be us. I want to camp in the shoulder season as much as we can.

The next thing that's been on my mind is keeping the trailer clean during wet season. Kids and dogs are messy!
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Old 04-28-2021, 11:55 AM   #140
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This is all great info thank you! I didn't know the newer pathfinder could tow 6,000lbs. I wish there was a website somewhere where you could filter for vehicles that tow over a certain amount and their payload. It gets so frustrating googling makes abd models to see tow and payload capacity. Especially since it changes so much per year.
This might help...
https://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-towing-guides/

Besides the yearly publications there is a searchable database off to the right of the page by year/brand/tow capacity range
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