Towing an Escape 21 with a Nissan Pathfinder

[Chris & Patricia]

Does anyone have experiences of towing an Escape 21, particularly a 2nd generation which runs a little heavier than a 1st generation, with a Nissan Pathfinder. The 2017 and subsequent and 2012 and prior years have a 6,000 lb tow rating and its a vehicle we would consider.

Thanks much in advance for any thoughts.

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Chris & Patricia

Does anyone have experiences of towing an Escape 21, particularly a 2nd generation which runs a little heavier than a 1st generation, with a Nissan Pathfinder. The 2017 and subsequent and 2012 and prior years have a 6,000 lb tow rating and its a vehicle we would consider.

Thanks much in advance for any thoughts.

While I do not have any experience towing the combination you mention, I can say that over many years several automatic transmission technicians have told me it is wise, for reasons of longevity, not to exceed 80% of a vehicle’s tow rating. Given the Pathfinder’s 6,000 pound rating, and following the advice I have always been given, I would think that your Pathfinder is adequate for towing any trailer ETI currently produces, other than the 5.0TA of course.

[cpaharley2008]

There is a sticker inside your driver side door jamb that has some capacity numbers, it would help if you could post a picture of those amounts for others to see and make a judgement call, thanks.

[NCBill]

+10 Every single vehicle is unique, not just the year or model either. There will be a sticker on the door giving you the ratings of your particular car. Payload, gross axle weights, etc. Then compare to weights in the real world over on the fiberglass RV forum. Figure tongue weight to be 13% of the total trailer weight. All of that tongue weight comes out of the payload rating on your car. Dry weights are quite misleading, they help sell RVs for sure, but don't provide useful information with which to make GOOD decisions.

FWIW, I run out of payload capacity at less than 60% of my towing capacity. Its all about the options on my truck (too many) which result in a relatively low payload. Realize every option comes out of the payload. Its frustrating!

Of course, people routinely exceed the ratings of their TV, basing their decision on what someone else does, or the RV sales person tells them, or whatever. I have friends that just bought a trailer at Camping World. Camping World's towing "expert" told them they could ignore the door sticker and just use his guidance instead. He told them they could handle the trailer they wanted to buy, no problem (go figure....). I asked my friends what credentials that Camping World expert had to overrule the Ford designers and engineers.

[Chris & Patricia]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

There is a sticker inside your driver side door jamb that has some capacity numbers, it would help if you could post a picture of those amounts for others to see and make a judgement call, thanks.

Don’t have a vehicle yet, we are looking. We are trying to stay out of the full sized market. Although there are some smaller trucks (eg Tacoma/Frontier) that have an adequate tow rating, they feel small and cramped inside for us and the crew cabs are small and when we want to bring anyone else along, there’s not much space. There’s not many mid sized SUV’s that have a 6,000 lb tow rating and the Pathfinder is one of them.

[cpaharley2008]

Next time you go to the dealer, take a picture. Most internet ads now include a picture of the label for vehicle capacity.Weight capacity seems to be the limiting factor more than towing capacity, my Ram Hemi truck can pull close to 9,000 lbs but can only carry 15% of that number.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Chris & Patricia

Does anyone have experiences of towing an Escape 21, particularly a 2nd generation which runs a little heavier than a 1st generation, with a Nissan Pathfinder. The 2017 and subsequent and 2012 and prior years have a 6,000 lb tow rating and its a vehicle we would consider.

While both may be viable tow vehicles, the 2012 and earlier and the 2017 and subsequent are completely different vehicles - experience with one will not be applicable to the other.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

... I can say that over many years several automatic transmission technicians have told me it is wise, for reasons of longevity, not to exceed 80% of a vehicle’s tow rating.

Since the transmission doesn't know whether the load it is hauling is in the trailer or the tow vehicle, this doesn't make sense. One tow vehicle could be overloaded with a trailer only 70% of the rated maximum (because it is carrying a lot of passengers and cargo in the tug), while another of the same model could be well within limits with a trailer at 100% of the rated maximum (with just a driver). To the transmission, what matter is the gross combined weight of tug, trailer, and contents.

In fact, with a trailer weight limit of 6,000 pounds and a GCWR of only 10,000 pounds (from the manual), a 2017 Pathfinder can't possibly carry any passenger or cargo while towing a 6,000 pound trailer. It can't even carry all of itself, since an empty Pathfinder weighs substantially more than 4,000 pounds. The 6,000 pound rating appears to be a work of fiction, or the GCWR printed in the manual is incorrect.

The 2012 Pathfinder is even heavier than a 2017, but has substantially higher GCWR so it could actually tow a 6,000 pound trailer, and carry a driver but almost nothing else, while staying within GCWR. This is a normal rating situation for a light truck (the Pathfinder shares a platform with the Frontier pickup).

This sort of rule of thumb is probably an attempt to allow for passenger and cargo weight, instead of considering the actual values.

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

Given the Pathfinder’s 6,000 pound rating, and following the advice I have always been given, I would think that your Pathfinder is adequate for towing any trailer ETI currently produces, other than the 5.0TA of course.

With a 5000 pound trailer and 1200 pounds of passengers and cargo the tow vehicle would likely be overloaded (combined weight over GCWR). I agree that with a typical load in the trailer, a few passengers, and reasonable cargo, a tug with 6,000 pound towing capacity is likely to be within its GCWR limit. The idea is that if the tug can handle 6,000 pounds of trailer, it can handle less than 5,000 pounds of trailer plus at least 1,000 pounds of people and cargo. It's still worth checking the weights and limits.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Chris & Patricia

We are trying to stay out of the full sized market. Although there are some smaller trucks (eg Tacoma/Frontier) that have an adequate tow rating, they feel small and cramped inside for us and the crew cabs are small and when we want to bring anyone else along, there’s not much space. There’s not many mid sized SUV’s that have a 6,000 lb tow rating and the Pathfinder is one of them.

Forward of the rear seats, the 2005 to 2012 Pathfinder is the same vehicle as a 2004 or later Frontier. The Pathfinder has just a fraction of an inch more rear seat legroom than the Frontier Crew Cab, but in the front seats if the Frontier feels cramped the Pathfinder will be the same.

The current Pathfinder, on the other hand, has much more rear legroom than the old Pathfinder or a Frontier.

[Chris & Patricia]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Forward of the rear seats, the 2005 to 2012 Pathfinder is the same vehicle as a 2004 or later Frontier. The Pathfinder has just a fraction of an inch more rear seat legroom than the Frontier Crew Cab, but in the front seats if the Frontier feels cramped the Pathfinder will be the same.

The current Pathfinder, on the other hand, has much more rear legroom than the old Pathfinder or a Frontier.

Brian, thanks for your useful series of posts, which serve as a good reminder. I will go away, do some internet research, then do some arithmetic. I am allowing about 5,000lbs for the trailer, which is probably slightly on the high side, but, nothing wrong with being slightly conservative where safety is concerned. Obviously I will have to factor the tongue weight into they payload number. Anyway thanks again.

[Doug2000]

Originally Posted by Chris & Patricia

Don’t have a vehicle yet, we are looking. We are trying to stay out of the full sized market. Although there are some smaller trucks (eg Tacoma/Frontier) that have an adequate tow rating, they feel small and cramped inside for us and the crew cabs are small and when we want to bring anyone else along, there’s not much space. There’s not many mid sized SUV’s that have a 6,000 lb tow rating and the Pathfinder is one of them.

I just did a write up about my 4Runner. You should read it. Being in BC, I think you need a full size for a 21'. Elevation, elevation, elevation,

http://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f1...nce-13422.html

[gbaglo]

My RAV4 V6 Sport pulls my 17B up a 17 kilometer hill at grades up to 8 per cent. No, I'm not doing the speed limit ( 120 kph ), but I do 85-90 kph and pass the semis in the slow lane.
Climbed the Coquihalla many times, and the Rockies through the Crowsnest.
Watched a woman with a full size truck ( four doors, long bed ) try to park it at Save-On-Foods. After about 10 minutes, she gave up and drove away.

No full size truck for me thank you.

[John in Santa Cruz]

crew cab long bed is way beyond a 'full sized truck, its gargantuan. mostly only available in 350/3500 weigth classes. i have an extended cab long bed and thats about as big as I'd want, I don't use it as a daily driver, strictly as a hauler and vacation-mobile. if I need to shop while towing, I find a space in the outer parking lot where I can pull through and park diagonally across 2x2 spaces, and I'm barely sticking into the traffic lanes on either side. We did this at Costco in Reno, for instance. I take 2 spaces wide so I have the room to get out.

[gbaglo]

The woman trying to park the truck could not make a turn into the space, nor could she back up far enough to get the front end around. It really was a lost cause. Mall parking spaces are getting more and more narrow.

[C&G in FL]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Since the transmission doesn't know whether the load it is hauling is in the trailer or the tow vehicle, this doesn't make sense. One tow vehicle could be overloaded with a trailer only 70% of the rated maximum (because it is carrying a lot of passengers and cargo in the tug), while another of the same model could be well within limits with a trailer at 100% of the rated maximum (with just a driver). To the transmission, what matter is the gross combined weight of tug, trailer, and contents.

In fact, with a trailer weight limit of 6,000 pounds and a GCWR of only 10,000 pounds (from the manual), a 2017 Pathfinder can't possibly carry any passenger or cargo while towing a 6,000 pound trailer. It can't even carry all of itself, since an empty Pathfinder weighs substantially more than 4,000 pounds. The 6,000 pound rating appears to be a work of fiction, or the GCWR printed in the manual is incorrect.

The 2012 Pathfinder is even heavier than a 2017, but has substantially higher GCWR so it could actually tow a 6,000 pound trailer, and carry a driver but almost nothing else, while staying within GCWR. This is a normal rating situation for a light truck (the Pathfinder shares a platform with the Frontier pickup).

This sort of rule of thumb is probably an attempt to allow for passenger and cargo weight, instead of considering the actual values.


With a 5000 pound trailer and 1200 pounds of passengers and cargo the tow vehicle would likely be overloaded (combined weight over GCWR). I agree that with a typical load in the trailer, a few passengers, and reasonable cargo, a tug with 6,000 pound towing capacity is likely to be within its GCWR limit. The idea is that if the tug can handle 6,000 pounds of trailer, it can handle less than 5,000 pounds of trailer plus at least 1,000 pounds of people and cargo. It's still worth checking the weights and limits.

Tow rating and load capacity are two different things. When considering load, only the tongue or pin weight are considered in the vehicles “not to be exceeded” payloadt. The rest of the trailer’s weight has no effect on the tow vehicle’s payload, because the load that the vehicle can carry is determined by, among other factors, it’s frame/suspension/wheels/tires, etc. Towing capacity is another consideration altogether that is not inherintly tied to the maximum payload. The manufacturers know and take into account that a vehicle will have passengers and other items within when determining tow ratings.
As a result, I stick by my original post. I only related what I have been told on multiple occasions (by transmission technicians) that it is best not to exceed 80% of a vehicle’s towing capacity even if the payload is way under the vehicles published maximum. I do, however, agree with Brian that loading a vehicle to its maximum and approaching the maximum listed tow rating is exceedingly unwise, not only from a mechanical longevity standpoint, but also in terms of safety.

[NCBill]

RAV4 V6 is a fine choice for a 17. Doubtful on a 21 IMHO. As far as length, OK, my truck is two feet longer than a Pathfinder.

I drive my F150 every day, I don't ever have a problem parking. Now years ago, I had a 1 ton dually. That truck was hard to park for sure.

[Rossue]

A new 21 loaded to travel is going to weigh more than you think. For our Gen1 we not only deleted the AC on roof- we also sought to shed another 100 lbs. with single pane windows, however they got backordered after installing three windows. This was when we still had a five month old Highlander. Traded it in and have never regretted it.

Big difference between being fine and enjoying the ride.

[Chris & Patricia]

Jim Bennett on the Escape Facebook page recommended that I consider the Porsche Cayenne with a 7,700 lb tow rating. Unfortunately at C$134,000, its a touch beyond our budget. After I did some calculations (thanks Brian B-P) with the GCWR and so on, I figured out that I could just about sneak under the total GCWR for the Pathfinder, but barely. Also, looking at the HP and Torque of the Pathfinder compared to what I have been driving and similar vehicles as to the kind of ride, I figured that I no longer wish to barely make it to the top. Considering that we do lots of hills where we travel, and some of them at altitude where you lose power, I think that Rossue's point of being fine and enjoying the ride is well taken. With lots of mountains as well as distances to travel in our plans, its going to tax an underpowered TV/trailer combo, so its looks as though it would be advisable to move up to some kind of half-ton truck or similar sized full size SUV, with more power and towing capacity.

Thanks to all those who commented.

[Chris & Patricia]

Originally Posted by gbaglo

The woman trying to park the truck could not make a turn into the space, nor could she back up far enough to get the front end around. It really was a lost cause. Mall parking spaces are getting more and more narrow.

I guess I won’t be taking our new vehicle to get the groceries at Save-On, or to Capilano Mall, anytime soon.!

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

Tow rating and load capacity are two different things. When considering load, only the tongue or pin weight are considered in the vehicles “not to be exceeded” payloadt. The rest of the trailer’s weight has no effect on the tow vehicle’s payload, because the load that the vehicle can carry is determined by, among other factors, it’s frame/suspension/wheels/tires, etc. Towing capacity is another consideration altogether that is not inherintly tied to the maximum payload.

All true, but not the problem. Payload is limited by GVWR (yes, it depends on factors such as frame, suspension, wheels, tires, etc); towing plus payload is limited by GCWR (which is limited mostly by the powertrain). The problematic value with the 2017 Pathfinder is the 10,000 pound GCWR, which certainly does make the 6,000 pound trailer impossible, and is quite different from the 2012 Pathfinder GCWR.

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

The manufacturers know and take into account that a vehicle will have passengers and other items within when determining tow ratings.

No, they typically don't account for other loads. It is routine to calculate towing rating allowing for only a driver and no other load in the vehicle.

Originally Posted by C&G in FL

I only related what I have been told on multiple occasions (by transmission technicians) that it is best not to exceed 80% of a vehicle’s towing capacity even if the payload is way under the vehicles published maximum.

I'm sure they say that. It is just a very poor substitute for actual information.