Towing with an F150 Lightning?

[gbaglo]

And, then there is this: BMW is charging $23 a month subscription for heated seats in UK and some other countries.

[Mike Lewis]

I've started carpooling to my astronomy and camera club meetings in Pensacola with a retired GM executive. Last Friday we took his wife's Chevy Bolt, an all-electric car. It's pretty slick and I was impressed. I think it would be a great commuter car. The man told me that GM has put a lot of effort into getting the Bolt right, as it sees EVs as its future.

He also said that Chevy has an electric truck in the works that has an enormous towing capacity. I've forgotten the details and I don't remember when it is coming to market.

[LarryLSB]

Originally Posted by Mike Lewis

I've started carpooling to my astronomy and camera club meetings in Pensacola with a retired GM executive. Last Friday we took his wife's Chevy Bolt, an all-electric car. It's pretty slick and I was impressed. I think it would be a great commuter car. The man told me that GM has put a lot of effort into getting the Bolt right, as it sees EVs as its future.

He also said that Chevy has an electric truck in the works that has an enormous towing capacity. I've forgotten the details and I don't remember when it is coming to market.

Summer 24 on the Chevy Silverado, which looks amazingly like their Avalanche series.

Test drove the Bolt, it was a nice car, but like the VW better. Chevy Bolts are on the State Vehicle contract in California, so you see a lot of government employees riding around in them, State Parks uses them, and it's always nice to hear them drive up to your campsite.

Larry

[gklott]

VW announced it is going forward with an electric pickup truck. “VW exec Scott Keogh will lead the revival of Scout as a rugged electric truck and SUV brand.”” The target is full 250,000 annual US production by 2026 model year. Will be interesting to see if VW designs in good towing capabilities.

73/gus

[GregWCIL]

While the video was somewhat interesting it was a failure at comparing so many things. They didn’t even bother charging the EV to 100% and didn’t drive the same distance. And they used a gas guzzling 6.2 instead of the more efficient 3.0 diesel. I’d call it borderline click bait. Although it did show the EV imo to be worthless for long range towing.
In terms of cost per mile, the gas engine was paying road use (fuel) taxes. How are the EVs paying for road maintenance? In terms of efficiency, comparing 95% efficient electric motors to 45% efficient internal combustion engines ignores the fact that electric generating and transmission is not efficient either. It takes 2 to 3 kw of fuel to give you 1 kw at your charging station.

[Chamberman]

Originally Posted by GregWCIL

d use (fuel) taxes. How are the EVs paying for road maintenance? In terms of efficiency, comparing 95% efficient electric motors to 45% efficient internal combustion engines ignores the fact that electric generating and transmission is not efficient either. It takes 2 to 3 kw of fuel to give you 1 kw at your charging station.

1) Many states have begun to charge EV's an annual road usage tax on their registration to recoup the lost revenue from gas taxes. I've read that some states are talking about making it mileage based.

2) There is no gasoline burning production engine that is 45% efficient, 35% is more like it. Atkinson cycle engines can hit 39 - 40% but they're usually only seen in hybrids where the loss of low end torque can be made up with extra torque from elec motors. Due to drive-line or electrical losses a better way of looking at the vehicle efficiency is the % of power delivered to the pavement. ICE Gas based vehicles will put around 20% of the power used to the pavement. Electric vehicles will typically get around 60% of their stored power to the pavement.

3) There are production and transmission losses in all forms of energy. Do you think gas/diesel do not require input energy to produce and transport them? Drilling/Frac'ing, pumping, shipping, pipeline losses, refinery losses, storage losses, then after all of that an 18 wheeler has to burn diesel to deliver the fuel to the station.

I don't think that consumer EV's are ready at this point for long distance heavy RV towing either. Vehicle energy storage will need to be much larger and the charging infrastructure will need to grow as well, but its just a matter of time before both are realized.

[rbryan4]

Originally Posted by Chamberman

I don't think that consumer EV's are ready at this point for long distance heavy RV towing either. Vehicle energy storage will need to be much larger and the charging infrastructure will need to grow as well, but its just a matter of time before both are realized.

I agree, it's just a matter of time. I admit I'm not much of an early adopter when it comes to this. Not because I'm a stick in the mud (although we all have a tendency to resist change) but because I'd rather they worked out the kinks before I drop a big pile of cash.

[Chamberman]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

I agree, it's just a matter of time. I admit I'm not much of an early adopter when it comes to this. Not because I'm a stick in the mud (although we all have a tendency to resist change) but because I'd rather they worked out the kinks before I drop a big pile of cash.

I'm not an early adopter either. I used to be though and I've spent a lot of cash and at times endured a lot of frustration as a result of it.

We just recently bought a Toyota RAV4 hybrid, it took >20yrs of Toyota producing that tech for me to feel comfortable buying one.

[GregWCIL]

Originally Posted by Chamberman

1) Many states have begun to charge EV's an annual road usage tax on their registration to recoup the lost revenue from gas taxes. I've read that some states are talking about making it mileage based.

2) There is no gasoline burning production engine that is 45% efficient, 35% is more like it. Atkinson cycle engines can hit 39 - 40% but they're usually only seen in hybrids where the loss of low end torque can be made up with extra torque from elec motors. Due to drive-line or electrical losses a better way of looking at the vehicle efficiency is the % of power delivered to the pavement. ICE Gas based vehicles will put around 20% of the power used to the pavement. Electric vehicles will typically get around 60% of their stored power to the pavement.

3) There are production and transmission losses in all forms of energy. Do you think gas/diesel do not require input energy to produce and transport them? Drilling/Frac'ing, pumping, shipping, pipeline losses, refinery losses, storage losses, then after all of that an 18 wheeler has to burn diesel to deliver the fuel to the station.

I don't think that consumer EV's are ready at this point for long distance heavy RV towing either. Vehicle energy storage will need to be much larger and the charging infrastructure will need to grow as well, but its just a matter of time before both are realized.

Yes the road use taxes must and hopefully will get figured out. I wasn’t ignoring liquid fuel production cost. Just figured electric power plants have similar but not equal costs of fuel acquisition.
During my farming career I have been an innovator and early adaptor. I firmly believe technology will solve many of the obstacles. Just trying to clarify current conditions.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Chamberman

2) There is no gasoline burning production engine that is 45% efficient, 35% is more like it. Atkinson cycle engines can hit 39 - 40% but they're usually only seen in hybrids where the loss of low end torque can be made up with extra torque from elec motors.

The best are around that 40%, and that's not only in hybrids. Toyota is the company known for their pseudo-Atkinson engines in hybrids, and all of their current "Dynamic Force" series get about that, and the difference between the versions used in hybrids (-FXE and -FXS variants) and the version used in non-hybrids (-FKS, -FXB) is only one percentage point. The T24A-FTS is a 2.0 L 4-cylinder that is used in identical form in both hybrid and non-hybrid applications.

One advantage of any hybrid is that it can keep the engine operating closer to optimal conditions by managing load, filling in some power from the battery to reduce brief high engine demand, and making up for it later when demand is low the engine can efficiently replace the energy used.

Another advantage of some hybrids, including the power-split system in most Toyota models and some others, is that the system operates as a continuously variable ratio transmission (CVT), allowing the engine to operate at the ideal speed for the power level of the moment. That's less important now that mechanical CVTs are common and conventional transmissions have many ratios (8 to 10 typically).

Of course in real use conditions are never optimal, engines are forced to run off of their peak efficiency point, and average engine efficiency is lower. This is also true of electric motors: despite peak efficiency of the motor plus inverter system of about 92% in typical modern EVs, efficiency at other speed and load combinations is lower, and can be much lower especially at low speed. An EV might go through an entire day of driving and never operate within 1% of it's peak efficiency because the driver never used within the ideal range of power while driving within the ideal range of road speed.

[Wshowell]

Took my parent’s E19 14 miles each way to get



some new Carlisle shoes all around. They tow with their Tundra but I’d prefer to use my Lightning or our Rivian R1S when we get it to tow it on future trips. When my wife and I borrow it for a trip we should get about 160 safe miles (stopping to charge before <10% and charging to 90%). That will take about 40 minutes and most likely I’ll have to unhook. However, we will be on vacation and don’t have much intention on traveling more than 300 miles in any one day. This should be fine for us. Plus Tesla is opening up their supercharger network which will really add reliability. I drove a model S70 with a range of 220 miles 100 to 0 for 80K miles over 6 years and never had an issue with range or finding charging. Sure, I can recall 2 or 3 times being frustrated to charge on a long trip (Vegas, Portland from CA) but it’s far more frustrating filling my old truck up at Costco for $125 after waiting in line 20 minutes. I guess ya’ choose your poison. I also like that my 240V and 120V will run the trailer when when boondocks. Sure, I’ll throw in the genset like we always do anyway and be fully prepared.

[HABBERDABBER]

Thank you for posting on your electric towing experience. Last Fall I acquired a Chevy Bolt EUV. I'm still smiling over the very pleasant & totally different experience of electric propulsion.
Electric vehicles currently do not do everything the same way as internal combustion ones. But what they do do, they do well. They filled my niche for a local transport car.

[emers382]

Originally Posted by Wshowell

Took my parent’s E19 14 miles each way to get... I drove a model S70 with a range of 220 miles 100 to 0 for 80K miles over 6 years and never had an issue with range or finding charging. Sure, I can recall 2 or 3 times being frustrated to charge on a long trip (Vegas, Portland from CA) but it’s far more frustrating filling my old truck up at Costco for $125 after waiting in line 20 minutes. I guess ya’ choose your poison. I also like that my 240V and 120V will run the trailer when when boondocks. Sure, I’ll throw in the genset like we always do anyway and be fully prepared.

Sure that may be great in California but not in Manitoba. Despite having nearly the cheapest power in US/Canada at 9.3cents a kwh EV sales in our province is one of the lowest in Canada per population. 80% of our population lives in one city, Winnipeg. One major reason I see for not more EV sales is that we have winter for seven months a year and it's known that EV's lose so much range in cold weather.

Living 100km from Winnipeg I cannot foresee ever owning an EV (our truck is our sole vehicle). When I'm in Winnipeg I usually fill up at Costco but never have waited 20 minutes, I'd go elsewhere.

[HABBERDABBER]

Any internal combustion engine also loses significant range with cold temperatures, with reduced MPG. An EV loses around 20% range reduction in winter. And some Costco's have EV charging stations. Woodman's grocery stores near me have free EV charging. Pull up, plug in and stock up.

[Chasing Trials]

Originally Posted by HABBERDABBER

Thank you for posting on your electric towing experience. Last Fall I acquired a Chevy Bolt EUV. I'm still smiling over the very pleasant & totally different experience of electric propulsion.
Electric vehicles currently do not do everything the same way as internal combustion ones. But what they do do, they do well. They filled my niche for a local transport car.

Yes, for some people they work. For other may never. I did just sell my run around 4 cly Tacoma (have the 6 Cly PreRunner for the Escape). & bought a Prius V(need the room & shaded back for the dogs). 2016 only 35K! the little old lady only drove to Church, for sure! That is as far as I'll go for a while.

[emers382]

Originally Posted by HABBERDABBER

Any internal combustion engine also loses significant range with cold temperatures, with reduced MPG. An EV loses around 20% range reduction in winter. And some Costco's have EV charging stations. Woodman's grocery stores near me have free EV charging. Pull up, plug in and stock up.

Tom, I don't believe that figure of 20% and I certainly don't get a reduction of that amount driving with my ICE in the MB winter. Thankfully my new truck was tucked into the garage six weeks ago whilst we enjoy Mexico.

This item is four years old and definitely there are improvements in battery technology but I have seen a recent article still saying up to 40% loss driving an EV in winter with the heater on.
https://apnews.com/article/04029bd1e...f9540a398c12d1

For us I cannot see an EV in our garage at least when we still are camping with our Escape but for two vehicle city based families they do make sense. Glad you're enjoying yours.

[splitting_lanes]

Originally Posted by Wshowell

Took my parent’s E19 14 miles each way to get Attachment 67097

Attachment 67098

Attachment 67099some new Carlisle shoes all around. They tow with their Tundra but I’d prefer to use my Lightning or our Rivian R1S when we get it to tow it on future trips. When my wife and I borrow it for a trip we should get about 160 safe miles (stopping to charge before <10% and charging to 90%). That will take about 40 minutes and most likely I’ll have to unhook. However, we will be on vacation and don’t have much intention on traveling more than 300 miles in any one day. This should be fine for us. Plus Tesla is opening up their supercharger network which will really add reliability. I drove a model S70 with a range of 220 miles 100 to 0 for 80K miles over 6 years and never had an issue with range or finding charging. Sure, I can recall 2 or 3 times being frustrated to charge on a long trip (Vegas, Portland from CA) but it’s far more frustrating filling my old truck up at Costco for $125 after waiting in line 20 minutes. I guess ya’ choose your poison. I also like that my 240V and 120V will run the trailer when when boondocks. Sure, I’ll throw in the genset like we always do anyway and be fully prepared.

I’ve been driving an electric car since 2011, I see cars prevalent on the roads around here, and now frequently electric trucks. Glad to see someone venturing out into towing with an electric truck!

When I first picked up my ICE truck, I had to read the instructions on the diesel pumps because it had been so long since I pumped anything into a vehicle.

I’m looking forward to seeing more posts from you on your electric truck camping experiences.

[HABBERDABBER]

Originally Posted by emers382

Tom, I don't believe that figure of 20% and I certainly don't get a reduction of that amount driving with my ICE in the MB winter.

"Cold weather and winter driving conditions can significantly reduce fuel economy. Fuel economy tests show that, in city driving, a conventional gasoline car's gas mileage is roughly 15% lower at 20°F than it would be at 77°F. It can drop as much as 24% for short (3- to 4-mile) trips."
SEE: https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/f...y-cold-weather


This item is four years old and definitely there are improvements in battery technology but I have seen a recent article still saying up to 40% loss driving an EV in winter with the heater on.
https://apnews.com/article/04029bd1e...f9540a398c12d1

Yup. Many EV's have heated seats and steering wheels, mitigating the need to heat the vehicle cabin. Also air conditioned cooled seats in the Summer. Mine has those. My vehicle can be pre-heated, or cooled for 40 minutes before leaving by a phone app or the key fob. That also conditions the battery with heating or cooling, if needed.


For us I cannot see an EV in our garage at least when we still are camping with our Escape but for two vehicle city based families they do make sense. Glad you're enjoying yours.

As I'd written, an EV is a niche vehicle, and not capable of doing everything the same as an ICE vehicle. I have no intention of using mine for camping and towing. Around town it is superb. It would simply take more time for me to drive to California from WI with it, but people do long trips all the time with EV's.
With an EPA mileage of 120 MPGe (gas equivalent), that works for me.

Your mileage may vary.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by emers382

Sure that may be great in California but not in Manitoba. Despite having nearly the cheapest power in US/Canada at 9.3cents a kwh EV sales in our province is one of the lowest in Canada per population. 80% of our population lives in one city, Winnipeg. One major reason I see for not more EV sales is that we have winter for seven months a year and it's known that EV's lose so much range in cold weather.

That's all valid, but another factor is incentives. The Canadian federal EV subsidy is available everywhere, but the high EV sales are where there is a provincial subsidy... and despite having good hydroelectricity, Manitoba doesn't offer an EV subsidy. A few thousand dollars sways a significant number of buyers.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by emers382

This item is four years old and definitely there are improvements in battery technology but I have seen a recent article still saying up to 40% loss driving an EV in winter with the heater on.
https://apnews.com/article/04029bd1e...f9540a398c12d1

Aside from battery technology changes, an important factor is the use of a heat pump (essentially the air conditioner running in reverse) rather than just a resistance heating element - that cuts the energy consumption for heating by a factor of two or three.