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Old 05-01-2017, 11:23 PM   #21
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Hi there: I own a Touareg and would be interested in hearing what you find out about towing. You can PM me through this forum, I believe. Thanks!
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Old 05-01-2017, 11:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Paul000Seattle View Post
Hi there: I own a Touareg and would be interested in hearing what you find out about towing. You can PM me through this forum, I believe. Thanks!
Actually it would be best to post any info here on the forum, so anyone else can learn from it.

in my opinion.

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Old 05-02-2017, 10:21 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Paul000Seattle View Post
Hi there: I own a Touareg and would be interested in hearing what you find out about towing. You can PM me through this forum, I believe. Thanks!
You can re-read post #14 above, or go to the Off-Roading & Towing - Club Touareg Forums forum to read endlessly about WDH, sway control, and hitch bar length.

There is also a sticky "What do you tow" with pictures of all kinds of crazy things people are towing, right up to the 7,700 lb limit with 770 lbs on the hitch.

The consensus is that if you have an older air suspension Touareg you don't need a WDH, but with a T3 (2011-2017) you may want to use one. The people with 700+ lbs hitch weight are definitely using them.

An Escape 21 is laughably small compared to many of the things people post pictures of on there.
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:09 PM   #24
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Paul000, The information I have found is not conclusive nor is it all in agreement or complete. This results in confusion for me because I don't have experience. It is clear people are using WD hitches and it is clear that people are towing trailers around the 7700/770 rating. Some are modifying the hitch. It seems to me that the cutoff between WD and WC hitch is between the 19' and 21' Escape for the tow vehicle we are talking about. I may be wrong on this for people towing with air suspension.

I am looking for a small trailer and am using what Skyfree posted in #14 as a guide. He has experience with the combo I am looking at and what he says makes sense.

My vehicle, a 2017 Q7 with standard suspension and the factory tow package has placards/stencils on the factory hitch receiver that states the WD load rating is 7700/770 and the weight carrying rating is 7700/770. Written above these ratings it says "Do not exceed vehicle ratings". I don't know if this statement means that vehicle manual statement restricting WD hitches restriction applies or not.

I would normally assume (and I think the manual even states this) that a placard takes president over the manual. I have asked for clarification from the dealer but have not received and do not expect to receive a clarification.

The other placard on the hitch says the maximum distance from pin to center of ball is 6.193" and the height of ball centerline is 3.432" above center of pin. Dimensions to 1/1000" makes me wonder how knowledgeable the people are who did this and whether their lack of common sense extends to other factory related towing information they have provided. A person could probably use this information to calculate ratings for ball locations outside these limits.
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:59 PM   #25
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Bob, I would hazard a guess that someone is overly zealous in converting from metric / Euro specs.
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Old 05-02-2017, 01:57 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by skyfree View Post
You can re-read post #14 above, or go to the Off-Roading & Towing - Club Touareg Forums forum to read endlessly about WDH, sway control, and hitch bar length.

There is also a sticky "What do you tow" with pictures of all kinds of crazy things people are towing, right up to the 7,700 lb limit with 770 lbs on the hitch.

The consensus is that if you have an older air suspension Touareg you don't need a WDH, but with a T3 (2011-2017) you may want to use one. The people with 700+ lbs hitch weight are definitely using them.

An Escape 21 is laughably small compared to many of the things people post pictures of on there.
I own a 2016 Touareg TDI delivered October 2015, 2 weeks before they pulled them off the market in Canada, and a TDI Touareg is still not available. The max towing capacity is 7700 lb but the tongue max is 616 lb (8% of max tow) These are values right off the hitch and also re stated in the owners manual. My experience with my 2014 17B is positive, great tow and no issues. I don't use a WDH as is clearly stated in the owners manual not to, and the same clause is actually repeated a number of times in the towing section, as is a maximum tow ball diameter of 2".
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:13 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by BobG View Post
Paul000, The information I have found is not conclusive nor is it all in agreement or complete. This results in confusion for me because I don't have experience. It is clear people are using WD hitches and it is clear that people are towing trailers around the 7700/770 rating. Some are modifying the hitch. It seems to me that the cutoff between WD and WC hitch is between the 19' and 21' Escape for the tow vehicle we are talking about. I may be wrong on this for people towing with air suspension.

I am looking for a small trailer and am using what Skyfree posted in #14 as a guide. He has experience with the combo I am looking at and what he says makes sense.

My vehicle, a 2017 Q7 with standard suspension and the factory tow package has placards/stencils on the factory hitch receiver that states the WD load rating is 7700/770 and the weight carrying rating is 7700/770. Written above these ratings it says "Do not exceed vehicle ratings". I don't know if this statement means that vehicle manual statement restricting WD hitches restriction applies or not.

I would normally assume (and I think the manual even states this) that a placard takes president over the manual. I have asked for clarification from the dealer but have not received and do not expect to receive a clarification.

The other placard on the hitch says the maximum distance from pin to center of ball is 6.193" and the height of ball centerline is 3.432" above center of pin. Dimensions to 1/1000" makes me wonder how knowledgeable the people are who did this and whether their lack of common sense extends to other factory related towing information they have provided. A person could probably use this information to calculate ratings for ball locations outside these limits.
Bob G - thanks for posting this info

I have been researching the current AUDI Q7

It looks to be a very nice tow vehicle - especially with the air suspension

I assume it would automatically level itself to account for towing?

And
I have read that the Q7 should not be used with a WDH.

I have also read that AUDI is very very picky about placement of the ball.

(You) The other placard on the hitch says the maximum distance from pin to center of ball is 6.193" and the height of ball centerline is 3.432" above center of pin.

My worry is .... how can one make sure the Escape is level, with such specifics?

And - to clarify - is it max height of the ball, or the exact height?

Thanks
John.
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:42 PM   #28
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Paul000,

The other placard on the hitch says the maximum distance from pin to center of ball is 6.193" and the height of ball centerline is 3.432" above center of pin. Dimensions to 1/1000" makes me wonder how knowledgeable the people are who did this and whether their lack of common sense extends to other factory related towing information they have provided. A person could probably use this information to calculate ratings for ball locations outside these limits.
Bob. In Europe the tow ball height (and trailer hitch height) are covered by EC Directive 94/20/EC titled: “Mechanical coupling devices of motor vehicles and their trailers and their attachment to those vehicles“ Annex VII Section 2.1 covers the vehicle mounting: That's where these dimensions come from and the conversion from metric to imperial certainly makes the level of precision look pretty goofy for the intended application.
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Old 05-02-2017, 03:25 PM   #29
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Bob. In Europe the tow ball height (and trailer hitch height) are covered by EC Directive 94/20/EC titled: “Mechanical coupling devices of motor vehicles and their trailers and their attachment to those vehicles“ Annex VII Section 2.1 covers the vehicle mounting: That's where these dimensions come from and the conversion from metric to imperial certainly makes the level of precision look pretty goofy for the intended application.
David that is very helpful.... and (i think) explains why that info there.

Is it because they are trying to standardize, in Europe, for safety reasons?

so i'm hoping that it would be OK to have a ball higher or lower, to get our 21' level? (or very slightly nose high, like a 1/2"... IIRC, as per Dennis at ETI, so in a panic stop, the trailer doesn't go way nose down, thus pushing hard on the ball, thus raising the front wheels of the tug....)





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Old 05-02-2017, 03:36 PM   #30
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In regards to Losangeles question whether the 3.432" ball height is maximum or fixed, it doesn't say maximum nor give a range so it is fixed.

In regards to DavidH and others question about the dimensions possibly being a hard conversion from metric to imperial, I wondered the same thing so I checked. There is no mm conversion that converts to the inches given on the placard. Maybe they calculated the dimensions to a fraction of a mm and then did a hard conversion.

Having standards for the height of the ball sure makes sense for a number of reasons.

Losangeles - You might want to look into the compatibility of air suspension and WD hitch if you are thinking of going with WD hitch. I have read enough to wonder if they can have conflicts. If you are planning WD hitch and air suspension I recommend you talk to a top of the line hitch company and ask their expert on these type tow vehicles what they think.

One thing about the Audi (and some others) is that when you turn on the ignition, the headlights adjust tilt angle of the headlights to accommodate the vehicle angle. I understand this has been standard for a number of years. I don't know if they adjust while driving down the road. The manual says for the operator to adjust the headlights after connecting the trailer so I asked the dealer how to adjust the headlights. That is when I found out they adjust themselves. And, yes they do adjust and they also light up the road in the direction the steering wheel is turned.

I think I attached picture of placard that has dimensions.
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Old 05-02-2017, 04:08 PM   #31
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John,

As the height of the ball changes relative to attachment points to the vehicle, the moment changes on the attachment point. It is like you holding a 5 lb hammer straight out in front of you. If you hold the handle up next to the heavy head, you don't feel much force in your wrist or shoulder but if the hammer has a 36" handle and you hold it at the end of the handle, your wrist needs to be stronger.

Think of extending the ball 10' straight up and then pull back on it like a trailer would when towing. You can imagine the rotation or moment force about the connection point would be much greater than if the ball is only 1" above the connection point. Of course the hitch attachment can still function as designed if the ball is higher or lower than specified if you reduce the loads. How much to reduce the loads can be calculated by an engineer at one of the hitch companies that designs hitches.
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Old 05-02-2017, 04:17 PM   #32
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Hey Bob - the Audi Q7 manual states that a WDH can NOT be used, at all.... so we would not.

:-/

Unsure if we'd bother getting sway control, as the Q7 does it's own "sway control", i believe....

early in the shopping process, so no crisis yet.

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Originally Posted by BobG View Post
In regards to Losangeles question whether the 3.432" ball height is maximum or fixed, it doesn't say maximum nor give a range so it is fixed.

In regards to DavidH and others question about the dimensions possibly being a hard conversion from metric to imperial, I wondered the same thing so I checked. There is no mm conversion that converts to the inches given on the placard. Maybe they calculated the dimensions to a fraction of a mm and then did a hard conversion.

Having standards for the height of the ball sure makes sense for a number of reasons.

Losangeles - You might want to look into the compatibility of air suspension and WD hitch if you are thinking of going with WD hitch. I have read enough to wonder if they can have conflicts. If you are planning WD hitch and air suspension I recommend you talk to a top of the line hitch company and ask their expert on these type tow vehicles what they think.

One thing about the Audi (and some others) is that when you turn on the ignition, the headlights adjust tilt angle of the headlights to accommodate the vehicle angle. I understand this has been standard for a number of years. I don't know if they adjust while driving down the road. The manual says for the operator to adjust the headlights after connecting the trailer so I asked the dealer how to adjust the headlights. That is when I found out they adjust themselves. And, yes they do adjust and they also light up the road in the direction the steering wheel is turned.

I think I attached picture of placard that has dimensions.
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Old 05-02-2017, 06:15 PM   #33
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David that is very helpful.... and (i think) explains why that info there.

Is it because they are trying to standardize, in Europe, for safety reasons?

so i'm hoping that it would be OK to have a ball higher or lower, to get our 21' level? (or very slightly nose high, like a 1/2"... IIRC, as per Dennis at ETI, so in a panic stop, the trailer doesn't go way nose down, thus pushing hard on the ball, thus raising the front wheels of the tug....)





John
Hi John. yes the prime objective of the standard is to provide for safe and universal application across the European members as vehicles are traded freely under the same umbrella.

Actually nose slightly down is a better tow position than nose high. Under hard braking the centre of gravity of the tow vehicle moves forward hence the tow vehicles front end goes down somewhat lightening the load at the rear wheels. Likewise the trailer centre of gravity also moves forward increasing the load at the tow vehicles rear wheels. Thereby increasing the load at the tow vehicles rear wheels which will help maintain stability
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:19 AM   #34
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Actually nose slightly down is a better tow position than nose high. Under hard braking the centre of gravity of the tow vehicle moves forward hence the tow vehicles front end goes down somewhat lightening the load at the rear wheels. Likewise the trailer centre of gravity also moves forward increasing the load at the tow vehicles rear wheels. Thereby increasing the load at the tow vehicles rear wheels which will help maintain stability
No, the centre of mass (or gravity) does not move appreciably under braking - assuming the that tug doesn't do a nose-stand with its rear wheels well off of the ground - and no, the height of the front suspension does not cause a change in the load on the rear suspension (although they are affected together).

No, towing with the nose of a tandem-axle trailer lower than it should be will not increase hitch load - with a tandem-axle trailer it will decrease load. The height of the ball will make essentially no difference to the load transfer between the tug axles... and there is no load transfer problem anyway, because the total load on the rear axle of the tow vehicle is not increased by braking, and the load decrease is no more of an issue than it is when not towing. Watch a vehicle braking with a trailer: does the tail of the tug go down? Not that I've seen.

This whole line about towing nose-down because of tug dive under braking apparently originates from someone in Chilliwack - not Reace - who doesn't seem to understand anything about vehicle dynamics but has come up with a line of reasoning and shared it with trailer owners... probably with the best of intentions, but with the opposite of any desirable result.

If anyone wants to re-design the coupling of an Escape to the tow vehicle for a lower coupling height to affect the lateral-axis moment applied to the tow vehicle, they will need to modify the tongue of the trailer, not just set the ball of the tug too low. I note that the ball height of Escape trailers varies substantially by model and year, and the various "lift" options raise the ball height by two to three inches (depending on option type and trailer model), and yet I don't recall anyone reporting control difficulties due to load transfer in the tug under braking with the taller variants.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:27 AM   #35
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Is it because they are trying to standardize, in Europe, for safety reasons?
Yes for safety, because the consistent height means that the interaction of the trailer and tow vehicle can be reasonably anticipated.

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so i'm hoping that it would be OK to have a ball higher or lower, to get our 21' level?
Yes. Obviously, since you are not conforming to the standard ball location specified by Audi, you should not push the limits of trailer weight which were determined assuming that ball location. For 5000 pounds of trailer on a vehicle rated for 7700 pounds, the compromise seems reasonable to me. Even in Europe, hardware is available to adjust the ball height by a moderate amount.

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... (or very slightly nose high, like a 1/2"... IIRC, as per Dennis at ETI, so in a panic stop, the trailer doesn't go way nose down, thus pushing hard on the ball, thus raising the front wheels of the tug....)
Let me know if you see the front of a tow vehicle going up under braking.

In the mean time, why not tow level as Reace and everyone else advises for tandem-axle trailers?
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Old 05-03-2017, 12:53 PM   #36
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No, the centre of mass (or gravity) does not move appreciably under braking - assuming the that tug doesn't do a nose-stand with its rear wheels well off of the ground - and no, the height of the front suspension does not cause a change in the load on the rear suspension (although they are affected together).
Brian, I must disagree. Whenever a vehicle experiences a deceleration, the effective normal force (again, more commonly referred to as weight) reacted at the four corners of the vehicle will change.
While the total vehicle normal force remains constant, the front axle normal force during a deceleration event will increase while the rear axle normal force will decrease by the same amount.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:09 PM   #37
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Whenever a vehicle experiences a deceleration, the effective normal force (again, more commonly referred to as weight) reacted at the four corners of the vehicle will change.
While the total vehicle normal force remains constant, the front axle normal force during a deceleration event will increase while the rear axle normal force will decrease by the same amount.
Absolutely true! However, the mass doesn't change position, so the force of gravity is unchanged in both magnitude and location, and so the centre of gravity does not change.

The difference between "centre of gravity moves" and "normal forces at the axles change" is a huge leap in understanding of dynamics. It's really not necessary for most people to understand the dynamics, but it would really be helpful if equipment installers who do not seem to understand the dynamics - or just cannot clearly explain them - wouldn't invent technical solutions to non-existent problems. It just makes life harder for trailer owners.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:38 PM   #38
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Old 09-02-2020, 11:47 AM   #39
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Towing a E21 with a 2015 Touareg tdi

Towing has been effortless, but strictly complying with VW’s requirements impossible.
First off, my 2015 Touareg is equipped with a Pro-Series WDH and 600# trunnions.
My E21 has a loaded weight (fresh tank full, others MT) of 4821#. The uncoupled tongue weight is 500#. Coupled it is 573# (hitch, bars etc.). Front and rear axel weights are within VW requirements.
So, I’m within VW’s weight restrictions, but obviously using a WDH. The OEM Westphalia tow bar has a drop so that the top of the ball is in-line with the receiver centre-line. The tandem axel E21 requires a rise of approximately 2” to tow level, as is required.
The OEM hitch would have no torque or shearing motion on the mounting bolts. I realize that the use of a wdh or any hitch bar with a rise will place a torque or shearing force on the mounting bolts.
So there it is.
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