Toyota Tacoma or Toyota Tundra for Escape 21'?

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by RangerMan

Some would say Mexico is in Central America. None of my Mexican friends would put it that way.

The boundaries of North America are fluid, depending on the context and the observer. A Mexican who I worked with (who grew up in Juárez and worked in México City), in the process of answering someone's question about what people from Canada and the U.S. were called (informally), said that we were "norteamericanos"... literally North Americans, which implicitly excludes Mexico. There's another word specifically for those from the U.S., which has a complex history and application that doesn't help with the "North America or not" question.

Any distinction between Central America and something north of that is political, rather than physical, so there will never be a single and clear definition.

The relevant aspect in this discussion would be the area that functions as a collaborating economic unit for manufacturing of automotive products, which is currently Canada, the United States, and Mexico; this started with NAFTA (the North American Free Trade Agreement) and continues under various names (each country putting itself first in the name it uses). All pickup trucks sold in Canada and the U.S. are made in this economic zone; none of the companies building them are owned exclusively by investors in any one country, and all of them work through subsidiaries which are local to the countries they are operating in.

So for pickup trucks, the country associated with the brand doesn't matter to me.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Ian and Sue

It used to be that the old Ford Ranger and Mazda something or other were the same truck probably built in Mexico....is that ok since it is in N America too?

The first-generation Ranger was also sold from 1994 to 2010 (with some styling tweaks) as the Mazda B-Series truck. These trucks (both Ranger and B-Series) sold in North America were all built in the U.S.

Before the Ranger, the Ford Courier was a re-badged and slightly restyled Mazda pickup sold by Ford from 1972 to 1982; it was built by Mazda in Japan.

The current Ford Ranger for North America is a modified version of the T6 Ranger designed in Australia; for the North American market it is built in Michigan. Perhaps the Australian origin isn't local enough for some; they might be concerned about the Chevrolet Colorado / GMC Canyon, which started in Thailand (and the diesel engines are still made there), and is built (for North America) in Missouri.

[noblets]

In defense of the Tacoma;
Yeah, our 2017 Tacoma kinda struggles up the steep grades with the trailer, but, in the end, it gets us up there. Out trailer weighs about 3500# (I think) fully loaded. Truck's trailer weight rating is 6500#.
We have the V6 engine (the Atkinson engine, whoop-de-do!) 278 hp, 265 lb-ft torque. But it doesn't develop that torque until 4600 rpm. So that little engine is pretty much screaming up those grades. Towing mpg is 14-15.
From talking to other Tacoma owners, I believe that earlier Tacomas were better at towing.
On the other hand, without the trailer, the Tacoma is a great little truck. Note that I said little. I can actually reach into the bed from the side. Try that with the Tundra, the Ford 150, or even the new Ranger.
We get 18 to 20 mpg around town; we have even seen 21mpg on longer highway trips.
In 4WD, the truck is pretty much unstoppable, but then we're not stump climbers. Slick rock, deep sand, deep snow, ice, no problem. Around town, easy to drive, parks in surprisingly small spaces, good turning radius. Love the backup camera! 4LO rules!
My owner's manual says that we can carry 1150# beyond passengers. Not bad for a little truck! We're probably pushing that what with the heavy WDH and the heavy tongue weight (last time around 450#).
By the way, the effect of altitude on performance has come up in a couple of previous posts in this thread. I don't believe that's a problem any more. From what I understand, the O2 sensor controls fuel flow to compensate. I remember that the early VW fuel injection had altitude compensation as early as 1968

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by noblets

By the way, the effect of altitude on performance has come up in a couple of previous posts in this thread. I don't believe that's a problem any more. From what I understand, the O2 sensor controls fuel flow to compensate. I remember that the early VW fuel injection had altitude compensation as early as 1968

Even with fuel/air mixture properly handled, higher altitude means less air density and thus less power in any normally aspirated (not turbocharged or supercharged) engine. This is a fundamental characteristic of any engine, and can be significant when considering mountain highway altitudes (depending on what one considers to be a "mountain").

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by LeonW

The 2022 Tundra hybrid has 437 horsepower, 583 ft. lbs of torque and a 12,000 lb towing capacity. The conventional version has 389 hp, and 479 ft. lbs of torque.

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The electric motor of the hybrid system as a rated output of 35 kilowatts, which is 47 horsepower... illustrating that the hybrid has the same engine as the non-hybrid, and the same engine output, so the electric motor simply adds to it.

Some more detail, as it is being released:
Road&Track: The 2022 Toyota Tundra Is a Complex Answer to a Simple Question

In the Tundra the twin-turbo V6, when left on its own, is rated at 389-hp at 5200 rpm and 479-pound feet of peak torque at just 2400 rpm.
...
The engine and transmission carry into the “i-Force Max” hybrid intact. The hybrid, electric motor itself is in its own case sandwiched between the V6 and transmission. That whirring thing is rated at 48-hp and 184-pound feet of torque. Combine them together and the result is a claimed 437-hp and 583-pound feet of peak torque at, again, 2400 rpm. Yes, the math checks out.

The math doesn't actually "check out" trivially: the electric motor's is apparently only adding 104 lb-ft at 2400 RPM, so the motor's peak torque of 184 lb-ft must only be available from zero to some speed lower than 2400 RPM (which is not a surprise). The electric motor is useful for briefly "filling in" torque at lower speeds... which is a good thing for performance in general and specifically for towing. The peak 148 lb-ft should be available up to about 1370 RPM, and torque will drop off in inverse proportion to the speed.

With no turbocharged engine and no hybrid system currently available in the Tacoma, these are advantages of the Tundra.

[JeffreyG]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Even with fuel/air mixture properly handled, higher altitude means less air density and thus less power in any normally aspirated (not turbocharged or supercharged) engine. This is a fundamental characteristic of any engine, and can be significant when considering mountain highway altitudes (depending on what one considers to be a "mountain").

Yes, to fill in the gaps here....

All SI gasoline engines run stoichiometric, meaning the fuel quantity injected actually follows the air available. They always inject just as much fuel as there is air available to burn. As you ascend to higher elevation, the air pressure drops, and the air mass running through the engine drops at the same rate. This reduction in air mass runs approximately 3% per 1000 ft. elevation. So SI gasoline engines lose 3% power with every 1000 ft. they climb.

Turbocharging (specifically, moreso than supercharging) changes this loss of power because the turbine somewhat naturally compensates for the increasing elevation by increasing boost. It's common for diesel engines (which are all turbocharged) to lose only about 1% power per 1000 ft. elevation gain.


Modern turbocharged SI gasoline engines seem to perform closer to diesel in this regard, also sustaining power deliver at higher elevation much better than naturally aspirated engines.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

... the V35A-FTS engine has already been in production for four years. Although the truck will work the engine harder, the Tundra version is tuned for less peak power than the version which is in the Lexus LS 500.

Some more detail from the R&T article:

The major difference between the Lexus and the truck version of the new twin-turbo V6 is slightly smaller turbos for better low-end responsiveness and the tuning to match them.

[Ops]

Tundra 5.7 V8. Wouldn't try anything else here in the mountains of western Canada.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Ops

Tundra 5.7 V8. Wouldn't try anything else here in the mountains of western Canada.

well, if you're limiting your choices to Toyota, I would think the Tundra based Sequoia SUV in 4x4 would be a suitable tug for a E21, maybe with air bags added to the rear.

and if you're not limited to Toyota, any full sized Ford/Chevy/Ram truck, or the equivalent SUVs (Expedition, Tahoe/Suburban) will do just fine, especially with an airbag kit on the back of the SUV (as the SUV's tend to have softer suspension than the equivalent trucks).

I've had a few incidents towing where I've been *REALLY* glad I was in a much heavier duty vehicle than the minimum required, like when my hitch ball came loose from the ball mount, and my E21 was whipping around on the safety chains on a 2-lane rural highway in South Utah/North Arizona, a smaller lighter tow vehicle might have gotten yanked all over and been much harder to bring under control (was SO glad that I practice using the manual e-brake override lever on a regular basis as that brought the trailer under immediate control).

[Doug2000]

Originally Posted by Akfishman

Buy American

I see the Tundra is the most American by content again of the full size pickups. I don't see ranger on the list.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorz...h=23db37205210

I used to work in the auto industry. I worked for a Tool and Die company, the owner at the time said he would never buy an import. Since then, Toyota has built 2 plants in Ontario and now he drives a really nice Camry.

[Doug2000]

Originally Posted by Ops

Tundra 5.7 V8. Wouldn't try anything else here in the mountains of western Canada.

I have had a 2008 Tacoma 4.0L, a 2017 4Runner 4.0L and now a 2017 Tundra 5.7L. I could not believe how much power was lost at higher elevations. West of Denver towing the 17B with the 4Runner in 3rd gear.

If I head west again, I'll be getting the new Tundra with the twin turbos.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

well, if you're limiting your choices to Toyota, I would think the Tundra based Sequoia SUV in 4x4 would be a suitable tug for a E21, maybe with air bags added to the rear.

... and the Sequoia has an available (presumably optional) proper self-levelling rear air suspension (as does the 2022 Tundra).

[Kingfish]

Originally Posted by Doug2000

I have had a 2008 Tacoma 4.0L, a 2017 4Runner 4.0L and now a 2017 Tundra 5.7L. I could not believe how much power was lost at higher elevations. West of Denver towing the 17B with the 4Runner in 3rd gear.

If I head west again, I'll be getting the new Tundra with the twin turbos.

Hmmm!! After towing my 19'er the past 5 years with V8 Silverado and 370hp F150 V8, including several trips through Colorado, I recently took the same trip with my 5th Generation 3.0 4Runner. Transmission cooler, ScanGauge, and WDH installed. Crossed Trail Ridge Road from Granby east to Denver with no sweat. Tranny temp stayed below 180. Engine worked hard on the 2 hour climb, but so did the two V8 trucks. Did not notice any appreciable loss of power. Can't imagine purchasing another vehicle only for the few times I make such a crossing.

[Mark James]

Love Tacoma! Wanted one but bought a Tundra. The Tundra easily handles my 5 TA or for that matter the entire Escape line up.

[Catchlight]

After six years of towing our 21C with a 5.7 L V8 Tundra, we completely agree with everyone in this thread who recommends a Tundra over a Tacoma for its power, torque, and stability.

Another important consideration is comfort for the driver and passengers. The Tundra is basically a roomy, well-mannered luxury SUV with a box that tows a 21C with ease. By contrast, a Tacoma is spartan in ride and appointments, and "busy" when towing, which leads to greater road fatigue for everyone aboard.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Catchlight

The Tundra is basically a roomy, well-mannered luxury SUV with a box that tows a 21C with ease. By contrast, a Tacoma is spartan in ride and appointments, and "busy" when towing, which leads to greater road fatigue for everyone aboard.

It should be interesting when the Tacoma moves to the same new TGNA-F platform as the 2022 Tundra; currently the two models share very little if anything. The Tacoma will still be both smaller and oriented to a market for less luxurious and less expensive vehicles, but the difference in feel may be reduced.

For comparison, the Nissan Frontier and Titan are also based on a shared platform, called F-Alpha... and share almost no actual parts.

[John in Santa Cruz]

the concept of 'shared platform' has become very fuzzy in recent years.

[cpaharley2008]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

the concept of 'shared platform' has become very fuzzy in recent years.

In addition to my chemo brain memory........

[rjreeves]

Originally Posted by Akfishman

Buy American

Some years back, after my older brother had purchased a Japanese-built Honda car my Dad read him the Riot Act for "putting an American out of work" (he was a Union man). My brother responded " But If I buy an American car I put a Japanese person out of work", which I thought both egalitarian and twisting well the screws into my Dad, which we were quite fond of doing just on principle. My Dad however retorted with the following comment in a somewhat icy tone: "Yeah.. but that Japanese worker didn't contribute a penny to your Social Security fund.." Without actually saying it out loud, we all decided that he won the argument.

[John in Santa Cruz]

FWIW, my Tacoma was made in Fremont California, at the former NUMMI plant, which is now Tesla.