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Old 01-17-2022, 05:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex View Post
Just FYI attached is the 2022 Ford F150 Owners Manual section describing "How Does Trailer Sway Control Work". This for F150s with the Ford integral trailer brake controller.

Note the statement "The system applies the brakes to the individual wheels and reduces engine torque to aid vehicle stability." Obviously, the system cannot apply brakes differentially to each wheel on a trailer (they all have a single common control feed via the 7-pin connector), but it is likely that since different vehicle wheels get different braking applications the trailer brakes are applied different from at least some of the vehicle wheels at any given instant.
The statement that "the system applies the brakes to the individual wheels" implies to me that it is referring only to the tow vehicle's brakes, not to the trailer brakes at all. I suspect that the only difference between the vehicle's normal electronic stability control (which all new vehicles in North America are now legally required to have, by the way) and "trailer sway control" is additional logic to consider the effect of the attached trailer on the dynamics of the vehicle combination.
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Old 01-17-2022, 05:07 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by MrLynn View Post
I notice that the Escape19 Configuration Options lists three optional hitches.
...
And why would Escape be offering them?
Escape offers them because people want them... and they want them right from pick up time, so it is helpful that Escape sells them already installed on the trailer and helps the customer set up the vehicle-mounted side.

Many people want some sort of weight-distributing (WD) hitch because their tow vehicle has inadequate hitch load capacity without WD. Many others want a WDH because they have found, or are told by other people, that they will prefer the feeling of the rig with it.

No tow vehicle should need sway-controlling features of the hitch (which in these cases is just friction), but some tow vehicle and trailer combinations may benefit from it, particularly with adverse loading conditions (such as piles of heavy stuff on the trailer's rear bumper).
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Old 01-17-2022, 05:11 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by oldwave View Post
Pro pride and Hensley seem to be the best wdh and sway control, that said they are very expensive. I ordered one.
The Hensley designs (which include Pro Pride, which is another manufacturer of the same basic design) use a four-bar linkage to make the trailer effectively pivot at a point well forward of the actual ball. Since the distance from the effective hitch point to the trailer's axle is one of the factors affecting stability (with longer being more stable), this system will make every trailer more stable; however, the bulk of the linkage moves the vertical load of the trailer's tongue further from the tow vehicle, making the adverse effects of that load worse... so any hitch of this design always include a weight-distribution (WD) feature. The WD action works like any common two-spring-bar WD hitch. The Hensley design does not include any deliberate friction for sway damping.
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Old 01-17-2022, 05:14 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by huskersteffy View Post
Ever towed your trailer on a hot summer day along a flat, midwestern two-lane road with a 30+ MPH cross wind and then have a big 'ole semi blow by you in the other direction?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huskersteffy View Post
You will be most glad you have a WDH with anti-sway.
I did not have a WDH, or an anti-sway device of any kind... and had no problem. This was with a minivan and a 17' trailer. The characteristics of the tow vehicle and the loading of the trailer matter.
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Old 01-17-2022, 06:10 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
Escape offers them because people want them... and they want them right from pick up time, so it is helpful that Escape sells them already installed on the trailer and helps the customer set up the vehicle-mounted side.

Many people want some sort of weight-distributing (WD) hitch because their tow vehicle has inadequate hitch load capacity without WD. Many others want a WDH because they have found, or are told by other people, that they will prefer the feeling of the rig with it.

No tow vehicle should need sway-controlling features of the hitch (which in these cases is just friction), but some tow vehicle and trailer combinations may benefit from it, particularly with adverse loading conditions (such as piles of heavy stuff on the trailer's rear bumper).
So, hypothetically, if I got an Escape 19 to tow with my 2013 Ford Expedition EL with factory tow package, would I need a WD or WD+anti-sway package?

And if I got a used one that came with a WD hitch, should I use it?

Right now I tow a Casita SD 17, which came with a friction anti-sway bar (Curt). I use it, but frankly I'm not sure I can tell if it makes any difference. Mostly the Casita bounces and sways a little when hitting rough spots at speed (as at bridge joints), but otherwise tracks all right.
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Old 01-17-2022, 07:35 PM   #26
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I turn the F150 sway control off when using the Andersen no sway, as per vehicle instructions.
Simple matter if I can remember. Of course with my truck max tow package the 21C is not even there compared to my previous 7000# 31’ Airstream.
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Old 01-18-2022, 04:17 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by MrLynn View Post
So, hypothetically, if I got an Escape 19 to tow with my 2013 Ford Expedition EL with factory tow package, would I need a WD or WD+anti-sway package?
An Expedition EL is large, and with long wheelbase for stability, but you should check your owner's manual for the hitch weight limit without WD and compare that to the likely Escape 19' tongue weight. A sway control device is not required if you load the trailer properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLynn View Post
And if I got a used one that came with a WD hitch, should I use it?

Right now I tow a Casita SD 17, which came with a friction anti-sway bar (Curt). I use it, but frankly I'm not sure I can tell if it makes any difference. Mostly the Casita bounces and sways a little when hitting rough spots at speed (as at bridge joints), but otherwise tracks all right.
It doesn't matter if it's used, but I would never suggest using a friction-based bar-type sway control device (e.g. Curt #17200), because that style is not likely to ever be adjusted properly. The friction-based sway control features built into WD hitches are more likely to provide appropriate friction for sway damping.
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Old 01-23-2022, 06:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
An Expedition EL is large, and with long wheelbase for stability, but you should check your owner's manual for the hitch weight limit without WD and compare that to the likely Escape 19' tongue weight. A sway control device is not required if you load the trailer properly.
Finally remembered to bring in my Expy manual. It's been a crazy week, starting to sell my Casita, then having the guy who was going to sell me his Escape19 change his mind, so I had to scramble and pull the Casita ads and tell one fellow who was coming from far away to forget about it. . .

Anyway, the manual says the maximum trailer weight for the standard ('weight-carrying') hitch is 6,000 lbs, max tongue 600 lbs. The maximum for a 'weight-distributing' hitch is 9,200 lbs, 920 for hitch max. So my now-entirely hypothetical E19 would qualify for the standard (non-weight-distributing) hitch. I'd guess, without looking weights up, that if I were to get an E21, I'd be closer to the limit and a weight-distributing hitch might be advisable (but try finding an E21; I put in a deposit at Escape, but by the time we get one I'll probably be too old to crawl under and hitch it up).

Interestingly, the manual has misleading advice on weights. It says you can tow a trailer if "the maximum trailer weight is less than or equal to the maximum trailer weight listed for your vehicle on the following chart. . ." My vehicle in the chart is the 4-wheel-drive EL with the Optional towing package. The maximum given is. . . 15,000 lbs!

But wait: the heading at the top of the column of weights for different vehicle configurations says "Maximum GCWR." That's Gross COMBINED weight of truck and trailer. My Expy's Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) is 7,720 lbs. That leaves only 7,280 lbs for a trailer, not 15,000. Oops! And not, for that matter, 9,200 lbs either!

So it's no surprise novices like me are confused.

Regarding the tow-vehicle Sway Control discussed earlier in this thread: My Expy has it. I cannot find any instruction how to turn it off, though it sounds like it's really a function of Traction Control, and there's a button to turn that off. Will that turn off Sway Control, too? And should I ever? Guess I'd better ask on the Expedition Forum.

Sorry for the delay in responding. Hope you all had a better weekend than I did.
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Old 01-23-2022, 07:08 PM   #29
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Wind

Quote:
Originally Posted by huskersteffy View Post
Ever towed your trailer on a hot summer day along a flat, midwestern two-lane road with a 30+ MPH cross wind and then have a big 'ole semi blow by you in the other direction?

First, its as if someone flipped a switch and turned off the cross wind. Then a huge suction force as the rear of the semi passes by (Bernoulli equation!). Finally, someone flips the cross wind "ON" switch again.

You will be most glad you have a WDH with anti-sway.
I expected having to make a white knuckle maneuver the first time I towed the 19 on the way home from Arizona and that happened. But with the WDH, adjusted right, it wasn’t at all impressive or scary. Over the years I’ve had the cross wind/ semi tractor trailer experience many many times. The only time I tow without the WDH is when I pull the trailer from the building to the driveway to load it or wash it. About 150 feet on grass.
Both the Escape provided hitch with the spring bars and the (at one time) optional Anderson
have worked well for us.
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Old 01-23-2022, 08:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrLynn View Post
Anyway, the manual says the maximum trailer weight for the standard ('weight-carrying') hitch is 6,000 lbs, max tongue 600 lbs. The maximum for a 'weight-distributing' hitch is 9,200 lbs, 920 for hitch max.

Interestingly, the manual has misleading advice on weights. It says you can tow a trailer if "the maximum trailer weight is less than or equal to the maximum trailer weight listed for your vehicle on the following chart. . ." My vehicle in the chart is the 4-wheel-drive EL with the Optional towing package. The maximum given is. . . 15,000 lbs!

But wait: the heading at the top of the column of weights for different vehicle configurations says "Maximum GCWR." That's Gross COMBINED weight of truck and trailer. My Expy's Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) is 7,720 lbs. That leaves only 7,280 lbs for a trailer, not 15,000. Oops! And not, for that matter, 9,200 lbs either!

You can still pull a 9200 lb trailer, but not when the vehicle is loaded up to its maximum GVWR.

So if your vehicle is loaded to the max (7720 lbs) then your trailer can't exceed 7280 lbs. But if the truck is loaded to 6720 lbs (for example), then you can pull an 8280 lbs trailer. An on and etc.

A lot of times, they give you a very high trailer capacity, but this number assumes the vehicle is empty, probably just a driver. So most real world towing, you can't reach the tow rating because you have more people in the vehicle, and stuff.
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Old 01-23-2022, 08:47 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by MrLynn View Post
Interestingly, the manual has misleading advice on weights. It says you can tow a trailer if "the maximum trailer weight is less than or equal to the maximum trailer weight listed for your vehicle on the following chart. . ." My vehicle in the chart is the 4-wheel-drive EL with the Optional towing package. The maximum given is. . . 15,000 lbs!

But wait: the heading at the top of the column of weights for different vehicle configurations says "Maximum GCWR." That's Gross COMBINED weight of truck and trailer. My Expy's Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) is 7,720 lbs. That leaves only 7,280 lbs for a trailer, not 15,000. Oops! And not, for that matter, 9,200 lbs either!

So it's no surprise novices like me are confused.
I downloaded the manual from Ford to check. It is confusing, because (on page 259) it refers to "the maximum trailer weight listed for your vehicle configuration on the following chart", but there are no trailer weights listed in the chart; it then goes on to explain how to "calculate the maximum loaded trailer weight for your vehicle" and that correctly refers to GCWR from the chart that follows.

In any case, the 15,000 pound value is clearly stated as the GCWR, not the maximum trailer weight. This manual doesn't provide any maximum trailer weight value, leaving you to determine it from GCWR and your own Expedition's gross (loaded) weight; they tell you how to do this, but don't tell you how much your Expedition weighs.

As Jeffery explained, it doesn't make sense to subtract the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) from the Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) unless the vehicle is loaded all the way up to GVWR.

If you subtract the curb weight of the vehicle (apparently 5,800 pounds) from the GCWR (15,000 pounds) you get the maximum trailer weight (9,200 pounds in this case) for the best case. Every bit of load (people, cargo) that you carry in the Expedition takes away from the remaining amount available for the trailer.
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Old 01-23-2022, 09:42 PM   #32
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Thanks for the clarifications, Jeffrey and Brian. Yes, if I don't load the Expy up to its full GVW of 7,720 lbs, I can tow more weight. Brian, have to go back out and look at the sticker to see if I can determine the Curb Weight (not sure where you got 5,800). Apparently they changed the manual between printings, as mine (printing 2) doesn't explain how to calculate the various weights, but does refer back to the Load Carrying chapter, which sort of does.

In any case, the question of what weights require a WD hitch was addressed. Let me know if you find out anything about whether to turn off Traction Control (and whether that turns off Sway Control)—all of which is moot as long as I'm just towing my Casita.
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Old 01-24-2022, 01:46 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by MrLynn View Post
Regarding the tow-vehicle Sway Control discussed earlier in this thread: My Expy has it. I cannot find any instruction how to turn it off, though it sounds like it's really a function of Traction Control, and there's a button to turn that off. Will that turn off Sway Control, too? And should I ever? Guess I'd better ask on the Expedition Forum.
Traction control and stability control are related but different things. Trailer sway control is a specific mode of stability control. From the manual:
Quote:
The AdvanceTrac® with Roll Stability Control™ system helps you keep control of your vehicle when on a slippery surface. The electronic stability control portion of the system helps avoid skids and lateral slides and roll stability control helps avoid a vehicle rollover. The traction control system helps avoid drive wheel spin and loss of traction.
The manual says that you can "Turn the traction control system off using the TCS OFF button located on the center of the instrument panel". Then in the stability control section it says:
Quote:
The system automatically activates when you start your engine. The AdvanceTrac® with RSC® system cannot be completely turned off, but the electronic stability control and roll stability control portions of the system are disabled when the transmission is in position R. You can turn off the traction control portion of the system independently.
So you can turn off traction control, but it appears that unless you're in reverse you always have stability control... and trailer sway control.

Anti-lock braking and stability control are now mandatory under federal legislation (in the U.S. and presumably Canada), but traction control is not (and is not desirable under some unusual conditions); Ford may not let the driver turn off the mandatory features in the Expedition, although they can be turned off in some other vehicles.
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Old 01-24-2022, 01:50 AM   #34
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Brian, have to go back out and look at the sticker to see if I can determine the Curb Weight (not sure where you got 5,800).
The sticker won't show the curb weight. It will show both the GVWR and the payload: the GVWR minus the payload would be the curb weight that the payload must be based on.

I just subtracted the claimed 9,200 pound maximum trailer rating from the GCWR of 15,000 pounds, to conclude that the 9,200 lb value must have been based on a 5,800 pound curb weight (or 5,800 pounds for the curb weight plus a driver weight allowance).
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Old 01-24-2022, 05:57 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Brian B-P View Post
The sticker won't show the curb weight. It will show both the GVWR and the payload: the GVWR minus the payload would be the curb weight that the payload must be based on.

I just subtracted the claimed 9,200 pound maximum trailer rating from the GCWR of 15,000 pounds, to conclude that the 9,200 lb value must have been based on a 5,800 pound curb weight (or 5,800 pounds for the curb weight plus a driver weight allowance).
NADA shows:

Curb Weight: 6078
GVWR: 7,720
Max Payload: 1,642

FWIW, Edmunds gives 1,580 for payload, max towing 8,700, which is also a number I got from an RV dealer. We carry two people, plus some heavy stuff like roller jack, and tool box; and camping stuff that won't fit in the Casita. Probably nowhere near max, though. No problem towing any Escape, anyway. A Bigfoot 25' might be pushing the limit some.

As for trailer sway control, if I can't turn it off, no point in worrying about it. I wonder if it really does anything noticeable. Maybe best not to find out.
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Old 01-26-2022, 11:11 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Fender View Post
In looking at new vehicles I see that some come with towing sway control. I'm wondering how this compares to a WDH with sway control?
Would it mean that a WDH without sway control would suffice?
I have never use a weight distribution hitch, however I have used sway control on an F150 with a small tagalong camper. I only have one experience with actually having to use it. I was in the Dakotas someplace on top of the hill on the interstate and I hit a really high wind. The trailer started to go crazy the truck went “ding ,ding, ding…” and took over the breaking. I don’t know what it actually did, but I know that the trailer almost immediately came on control.

For my personal experience it was really worth it.

That being said I know that one of the respondents note that managing your weight distribution is absolutely key. I agree with that and I can tell you my little trailer was correctly balanced. I just happen to hit a really high wind. There are a few YouTube videos out there that talk about this topic that are worth looking at. I encourage you to enjoy them.

Be safe: I.e. go slow (below your tires speed rating), check your tongue weight, check your tire pressure and be under your vehicles payload and pull limits.
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Old 06-29-2022, 02:43 PM   #37
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First place to start - proper weight distribution

I can't say anything better here than Robert Pepper (L2S-FBC) does in any of his many YouTube videos on the subject.

https://youtu.be/PS_T3-zCzHw
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