WDH vs Anti-Sway

[stratos175]

I'm with Rubicon on this not so sure at only 5,000 lb tow capacity the Sorento is the right tow vehicle for a 21' by the time you add gear and people.
Does anyone on the forum know someone towing a 21' with a Sorento? you would be ok on flatter roads but you start climbing mountains I think you will see you need a different tow vehicle.
Lots of smart people on this site about these kinds of things so now you will get good advice.

Enjoy the journey.

Steve

[Chris & Patricia]

There are a variety of schools of thought that over whether a 5,000 lb capacity tow vehicle (TV) has enough capacity to tow a trailer that when fully loaded is not far short of 5,000 lbs.

We had a 17B which when fully loaded was close to the capacity of our TV. It towed fine on the flat, but going up long hills it was slow, felt laboured and fuel consumption went way up. It puts a strain on the vehicle, which means more wear and tear and maintenance issues increased.

When we upgraded to a 21, we had to upgrade our TV. Seeing as we live in British Columbia which has lots of mountains, we decided that we wanted to have lots of power to be able to go up hills more comfortably with less strain on the vehicle and keep fuel consumption a little better as the engine wouldn't be working quite as hard.

Based on my previous experience, your 5,000 lb capacity vehicle will do the job, but barely. For instance, driving from Hope, BC to Princeton, (not unreasonable from your home in Mission, BC) Highway 3 has quite a few steep gradients, both up and down, and it will be hard going towing a 21. We ended up purchasing a vehicle with a 7,800 lb tow capacity and are very pleased with the extra power and tow capacity it provides.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by stratos175

I'm with Rubicon on this not so sure at only 5,000 lb tow capacity the Sorento is the right tow vehicle for a 21' by the time you add gear and people.

Originally Posted by Chris & Patricia

There are a variety of schools of thought that over whether a 5,000 lb capacity tow vehicle (TV) has enough capacity to tow a trailer that when fully loaded is not far short of 5,000 lbs.

If your trailer (loaded up) does not exceed 5,000 pounds, you don't need any more than 5,000 pounds of towing rating; however, there are other ratings to consider. Carrying people and cargo in the tow vehicle while towing means that you could exceed the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), rear Gross Axle Weight Rating (GAWR-R), and/or Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) of the vehicle... so check those.

Some vehicles' ratings are such that if towing a trailer at the maximum towing rating, there is no capacity left for people and cargo - that's typical of pickup trucks. Other vehicles maximum towing ratings which allow for substantial people and cargo capacity - my Sienna can carry about half a ton while towing its max trailer (which is only 3500 pounds) without exceeding any rating.

There's a reason that the loading towing section in most owners manuals is several pages, not just one number.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by stratos175

... you would be ok on flatter roads but you start climbing mountains I think you will see you need a different tow vehicle.

Originally Posted by Chris & Patricia

Based on my previous experience, your 5,000 lb capacity vehicle will do the job, but barely. For instance, driving from Hope, BC to Princeton, (not unreasonable from your home in Mission, BC) Highway 3 has quite a few steep gradients, both up and down, and it will be hard going towing a 21. We ended up purchasing a vehicle with a 7,800 lb tow capacity and are very pleased with the extra power and tow capacity it provides.

There is some indirect connection between towing ratings and engine power. Larger engines are more likely to be able to handle continuous high power reliably, so rating are often higher with bigger engines; however, some of the most powerful vehicles on the road are not rated to tow at all (for reasons unrelated to the engine). The industry's towing rating standard (SAE J2807) has a performance component, but the bar is set very low, so the test can be passed at a level of performance that most people would find inadequate.

The problem with using the maximum trailer weight rating as an indication of performance is that it just doesn't work well. Having excess trailer weight rating does not mean that the vehicle has lots of power, and being loaded right to that limit doesn't mean the vehicle is marginal.

Consider this: a towing preparation package (with components such as a larger transmission cooler) can make the difference between a 2,000 pound towing rating and a 5,000 pound rating, but adds no performance.

I don't know if the grade-climbing performance of a V6 Sorrento is adequate, but the towing rating doesn't say much about that performance. Without experience with this particular vehicle, from a performance standpoint is would be more useful to compare with other vehicles of similar weight and with similar engine power... regardless of the towing rating.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by arniesea

The ride was better with the Anderson! The Anderson not only controls sway side to side, it dampens motion up and down as well. This is really a welcome feature when the road has equally spaced Frost heaves that can set up a rhythmic bounce.

That makes sense, due to the hitch system design. In any WDH, there are massive springs which are compressed or bent further when the tug to trailer connection pitches down (tug nose up and tail down), and extended or straightened when the tug to trailer connection pitches down (tug nose up and tail down). In most WDHs the springs are those long steel bars (which are under bending load), but in the Andersen No-Sway these springs are the polyurethane cylinders that the adjusting bolts run through (which are compressed). Steel springs don't provide damping, but elastomer (including polyurethane) springs do... so these springs are damping the pitch motion. Some WDH designs damp pitch motion with some friction, but elastomeric damping is generally better than friction damping.

[travdes]

The GVWR is 5680, so we'd essentially have 680 lbs of cargo/passenger weight inside the TV. I think we'll try it and see how it goes first before decide if we need to trade in our car for something bigger, perhaps we'll be restricted to the Lower Mainland / Island until that happens.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by travdes

The GVWR is 5680, so we'd essentially have 680 lbs of cargo/passenger weight inside the TV. I think we'll try it and see how it goes first before decide if we need to trade in our car for something bigger, perhaps we'll be restricted to the Lower Mainland / Island until that happens.

Are you saying that the Sorento weighs 5,000 pounds including the tongue weight of the trailer? The curb weight is probably about 4400 pounds for V6 Sorrento.

Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) = curb (empty) weight of vehicle + passengers + cargo + load on hitch
GVWR (5680 lb in this case) is the maximum allowed value of GVW.

There's also the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR). Few if any vehicles are rated so that the GVWR plus the max trailer is within GCWR... that's where the conflict usually comes in between passengers/cargo and the trailer.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Are you saying that the Sorento weighs 5,000 pounds including the tongue weight of the trailer? The curb weight is probably about 4400 pounds for V6 Sorrento.

Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) = curb (empty) weight of vehicle + passengers + cargo + load on hitch
GVWR (5680 lb in this case) is the maximum allowed value of GVW.

There's also the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR). Few if any vehicles are rated so that the GVWR plus the max trailer is within GCWR... that's where the conflict usually comes in between passengers/cargo and the trailer.

This can be bewildering to a towing newbie. I found using this spreadsheet a great exercise to understand safe load limits of a particular vehicle.
www.keepyourdaydream.com/wp-content/uploads/.../GVWR-and-Payload-Calc.xlsx

[travdes]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Are you saying that the Sorento weighs 5,000 pounds including the tongue weight of the trailer? The curb weight is probably about 4400 pounds for V6 Sorrento.

Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) = curb (empty) weight of vehicle + passengers + cargo + load on hitch
GVWR (5680 lb in this case) is the maximum allowed value of GVW.

There's also the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR). Few if any vehicles are rated so that the GVWR plus the max trailer is within GCWR... that's where the conflict usually comes in between passengers/cargo and the trailer.

Sorry, I misunderstood what the GVWR was then. Thanks for clearing that up. It would still be tight given the weight of us + two dogs even if the car is empty of cargo.

[travdes]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

This can be bewildering to a towing newbie. I found using this spreadsheet a great exercise to understand safe load limits of a particular vehicle.
www.keepyourdaydream.com/wp-content/uploads/.../GVWR-and-Payload-Calc.xlsx

Thanks that makes things a little easier. I've certainly learned a lot in the last 24hrs about towing

[EdColorado]

Brian said

"There's also the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR). Few if any vehicles are rated so that the GVWR plus the max trailer is within GCWR... that's where the conflict usually comes in between passengers/cargo and the trailer."

The GCWR has proved to be an elusive number for me to get from Jeep.

The Jeep Grand Cherokee Owners Manual, in two places, stresses the importance of not exceeding the GCWR but nowhere does it say how many pounds that is. It's not on the weight label attached to the door column.

The label says the GVWR is 6,500#. The GAWR front is 3,200# and rear is 3,700#.

I started with the dealership where I bough the vehicle. They didn't know the answer.

Asked the question three different times on the Jeep 'help line'. The Jeep 'experts' answered by tap dancing around my question. Bottom line? They didn't know but they didn't want to say they didn't know.

Two weeks ago I wrote a letter to FCA US headquarters in Auburn Hills, MI. No reply to date.

I'm going to keep pursuing this until I get an answer or Jeep changes their Owners Manual by deleting all reference to GCWR, which they should not.

My JGC is rated to tow 6,200# so I don't see this as being a practical issue for me, but if the manual stresses the importance of the GCWR then, by golly, they need to tell me that number.


Where are others getting the GCWR figure?

Ed

Build in progress. Completion date 02/13.

[rotorbudd]

Originally Posted by arniesea

Count me as a satisfied TradeMaster customer. My situation is different than the OP in that I had them install a goose-neck ball on my Tundra in order to use the Anderson Ultimate 5th wheel hitch. I noticed in my research that one needed to drop the muffler & Tailpipe to install the goose-neck bracket on the frame. Well when I bought my truck used it came with the most obnoxious glass-pack muffler that at times was so loud my wife and I could not converse in the cab.

So I brought a new stock muffler and tailpipe with me to trade master today. They replaced the old with the new for only 1 additional hour of labor even though it was not thier core business. They did a right fine job of it too!

I felt like thier customer service was equal to ETI. I dropped my truck off at 8:00 this morning, they called me at 1:00 pm with the job complete. I said I would be there in a 1/2 hour as I was walking from the hotel. They said “Oh, you don’t have to do that! We’ll come pick you up!” I greatfully took them up on the offer as it was raining pretty good!

All around good honest folks doing quality work.

I had them install a front receiver on my F150 so I could drive my trailer down the driveway. (6in. clearance between each side)
They are fast, fair price, and do quality work.
Oh, and they insisted on driving me to and from the motel also.

[cpaharley2008]

There is a thread right before this one where these terms were/are all explained. I know because I posted it close to 7 years ago......

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by EdColorado

The GCWR has proved to be an elusive number for me to get from Jeep.

The Jeep Grand Cherokee Owners Manual, in two places, stresses the importance of not exceeding the GCWR but nowhere does it say how many pounds that is. It's not on the weight label attached to the door column.
...
Where are others getting the GCWR figure?

This is a disturbingly common problem. My 2004 Toyota Sienna manual clearly states the GCWR, but that now appears to be uncommon.

The 2017 Sorento manual has the usual warning to not exceed the limit for GCW, but doesn't even include GCW or GCWR in the glossary, does not provide the GCWR value, and in listing the contents of the weight limit label does not include GCWR.

I don't think it's ever on the label with the GVWR, although that would be a good place to put it.

The most conservative approach to estimating the GCWR if it is not provided is to assume that it is equal to the curb weight plus the maximum trailer weight plus a driver allowance (70 kg or 150 lb?), because it would not be possible to assign the trailer weight rating with a GCWR any lower. Effectively, that means that the passenger plus cargo plus trailer must fit within the trailer weight rating, which is unnecessarily restrictive in many cases.

[EdColorado]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

This is a disturbingly common problem.

The most conservative approach to estimating the GCWR if it is not provided...

Thank you.
By your formula my GCWR is in the 11,500# range.

I intend to keep pestering Jeep for their answer. Just because.

ED

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

The most conservative approach to estimating the GCWR if it is not provided is to assume that it is equal to the curb weight plus the maximum trailer weight plus a driver allowance (70 kg or 150 lb?), because it would not be possible to assign the trailer weight rating with a GCWR any lower. Effectively, that means that the passenger plus cargo plus trailer must fit within the trailer weight rating, which is unnecessarily restrictive in many cases.

Originally Posted by EdColorado

By your formula my GCWR is in the 11,500# range.

You guys got me curious so as a gut check I found the GCWR in my Toyota 4Runner Manual which states it as 9600#. This agrees closely with curb weight of 4300# + 5000# max trailer weight + driver @ 150# which equals 9450#. Maybe they account for an additional 150# passenger?

Regarding Jeep Grand Cherokee I found in an online forum that a 2017 SRT trim is 12,600# GCWR. This agrees closely with curb weight of 5150# + 7200# max trailer weight + driver @ 150# which equals 12500#.

[AnJ]

Are the Kia Sorento and Hyundai Sante Fes not built on the same platform, just different labels stuck on the front? I could be wrong, but I feel like I read this somewhere. I think Kia is owned by Hyundai. I know that there are a few on here that tow their 21s with a Sante Fe. Obviously, you want to go with what the guidelines say for your Sorento, but for RL experiences/opinions, that might be helpful.

We took our Silverado to Clearbrook Hitch to outfit it for our 21. They seemed very helpful, reasonable and honest. We had an older WDH and just wanted to make sure that it was still safe to use. We actually brought in 2 as we wanted an opinion on which would be better- he noticed a twist in one we did not even notice. He probably spent about half an hour with us and only charged us $10 for a new ball he had to put on the WDH we were using. Our truck has a longer wheelbase, which makes it more stable than an SUV that perhaps has a shorter wheel base, so the WDH did the job for us. He advised adding the sway bars if we drove it a bit and noticed that it was swaying- but it's towed great with just the WDH. He seemed very knowledgeable.

While our truck had the tow package, it was not wired for trailer brakes, so this had to be added. As our truck was still under warranty, we opted to have it wired by the dealership just to be on the safe side after reading some others' experiences where the brake controller was installed and other electronics in the vehicle were never the same afterwards. The dealership quoted us a really high price for the cost of the brake controller, so we bought our own for much less and had the dealership install it for $200.

Congrats on your 21. Figuring out all of the ratings for towing is not the funnest part, but pretty well everything else is!

[EdColorado]

Originally Posted by rubicon327

You guys got me curious so as a gut check I found the GCWR in my Toyota 4Runner Manual which states it as 9600#. This agrees closely with curb weight of 4300# + 5000# max trailer weight + driver @ 150# which equals 9450#. Maybe they account for an additional 150# passenger?

Regarding Jeep Grand Cherokee I found in an online forum that a 2017 SRT trim is 12,600# GCWR. This agrees closely with curb weight of 5150# + 7200# max trailer weight + driver @ 150# which equals 12500#.

Your JGC research mostly confirms Brians formula.

The curb weight of my JGC model is 5,004#. 6,200# max trailer weigh plus two passengers equals 11,500#. MOL.

Plus I carry a 65# dog and probably another 100# of tools, etc. so that needs to be factored in as well.

Thanks for the info.

Ed

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by EdColorado

Your JGC research mostly confirms Brians formula.

The curb weight of my JGC model is 5,004#. 6,200# max trailer weigh plus two passengers equals 11,500#. MOL.

Plus I carry a 65# dog and probably another 100# of tools, etc. so that needs to be factored in as well.

Thanks for the info.

Ed

The GWVR of a new 21 is 5000# so your trailer should never weigh more than that fully loaded. Even after accounting for tongue weight you should have enough payload headroom in the truck. Play with the spreadsheet I linked earlier.

[Jeanman]

Hi, I have a KIA Sorento V6 AWD, with a factory class III hitch installed by the dealer. The controler is basic Tekonsha, E2 hitch installed by ETI at orientation picking our 21´. Since may 2018, I crossed Canada twice and now, we are on Mexico Pacific Coast . I am totally satisfied with the combination.