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Old 11-13-2013, 08:22 AM   #1
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Weight of a 21

We picked up the trailer with about 600# of stuff in the back of the Jeep. We knew how much as we drove across a truck scale in Oregon on our way North. The Jeep was 600# heavier than normal. We then moved everything into the trailer and weighed it again. With the Anderson WDH hooked up the Jeep weighed about 6000# and each side of the trailer weighed 1800#. So I had about 700# transfered to the TV with tongue weight and WDH transfer. I checked the scale for accuracy by stepping out and the difference was my weight. When I arrived home I weighed the tongue before emptying the trailer, about 550# at that time and then when empty the tongue was about 300#. I use the word about because of variations in level and fluids.
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:55 AM   #2
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So the Escape 21' , wet, weighs 3600# including 550# t/w, based upon the above numbers?
What do you estimate the dry weight to be?
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Old 11-13-2013, 12:30 PM   #3
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Thanks Jack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
So the Escape 21' , wet, weighs 3600# including 550# t/w, based upon the above numbers?
I don't think so, Jim:
Quote:
Originally Posted by azjack View Post
With the Anderson WDH hooked up the Jeep weighed about 6000# and each side of the trailer weighed 1800#. So I had about 700# transfered to the TV with tongue weight and WDH transfer.
So 700 lb of the trailer and contents were carried by the Jeep, and 3600 lb were carred by the trailer axles. That's 4500 pounds, including 600 lb of cargo, leaving 3900 pounds of empty trailer... but we don't know if that is wet or dry. We also have no idea of the hitch weight at this point, except that it should be more than 700 lb.

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When I arrived home I weighed the tongue before emptying the trailer, about 550# at that time and then when empty the tongue was about 300#.
Here we have the empty (still don't know if wet or dry) tongue weight of 300 lb. We also see that about 1/3 of the 600 lb of cargo was carried by the tongue.

So the empty (but don't know if wet or dry) trailer weighs about 3900 pounds, including 300 pounds of tongue weight.

With published base dry weight and tongue weight of 3060 and 360 pounds, I can only speculate that Jack had both optional equipment and water onboard, and that the tank(s) are rearward of the axle centre... increasing the weight and decreasing the tongue weight. Loading the cargo relatively forward resulted in a good weight distribution. There is enough missing information and uncertainty that it is not apparent if the WDH transferred a roughly reasonable amount of load; with 550 lb of tongue weight and the WD engaged, less than 550 lb (not 700 lb) should have been added to the Jeep.

The changing fluid load really does matter to any interpretation of the numbers.
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Old 11-13-2013, 12:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azjack View Post
We picked up the trailer with about 600# of stuff in the back of the Jeep. We knew how much as we drove across a truck scale in Oregon on our way North. The Jeep was 600# heavier than normal. We then moved everything into the trailer and weighed it again. With the Anderson WDH hooked up the Jeep weighed about 6000# and each side of the trailer weighed 1800#. So I had about 700# transfered to the TV with tongue weight and WDH transfer.
Jack, are you saying that the normal (no trailer, no cargo) weight of the Jeep is 5300 pounds?
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Old 11-13-2013, 02:13 PM   #5
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Thanks Brian, for your explanation.
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:36 PM   #6
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Someone gave a loaded weight previously for the 21' of 4200 lbs.
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:53 PM   #7
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I'd be happy with about 3800 lbs, wet, if possible, or about 500# more than the 19' was when loaded for the road. I'm going to have to go on a diet, perhaps, and only carry one set of items versus 2 of everything. Somethings I have carried around for 6 years and never needed. For example, I have 3 coffee pots, one for stovetop/outdoor stove and 2 electric models. Three grills, 2 propane and one butane. Five chairs? Two outdoor tables, one bike.
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:52 PM   #8
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One of the new owners shared with me that his lightly loaded 21 was 3740# total weight.
Sounds like he had everything needed to camp, but no food or clothing (& no extras).
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:45 PM   #9
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Escape 21 weights

OK, so here goes. I'm not totally secure with all this, but I'll give you what I have. First of all I measured my new 21 with a light load of equipment. We had virtually everything needed to camp (stoves, chairs, kitchen equipment, bedding, tools, chalks, mirrors, and some clothing), but we didn't have any food, extra bedding towels, etc. inside. We also had one full and one empty propane tank. The scale measurements were made with water only in the water heater, all other tanks were empty. The Anderson was on-board, but not adjusted.

Front axle of truck on scale (trailer connected); 2420#
Both axles of truck on scale (trailer connected); 5360#
Truck and trailer on scale; 8560#
Trailer only on scale (connected to truck); 3360#

My truck normally weighs 4900#, but I can't be sure of it's weight without the trailer on that day. So if I'm doing this right, the calculated tongue weight is (Truck's both axles on scale - assumed truck weight ) or 460#. Add to that the trailer only weight from the scale of 3360# and we get a total of 3820#.

The problem arises when I get home and put the Sherline tongue weight scale under it and it tells me that the tongue weight is only 380#. If this is true, then my truck weighed more on that day which placed the trailer at (trailer only on scale + Sherline measurement), or 3740#.

I messed around with tongue weight further as follows:
Sherline tongue weight with front box containing; hitch chains, compressor, mirrors, leveling block kit, Anderson quick levelers, and 2 jack wheels = 380#

Removed from the front box; 2 wheels, compressor, and hitch chains = 360#

Removed from the front box; leveling block kit and Anderson quick levelers = 350#
Added carrier and 2 bikes to the rear of the trailer = 300#
put everything back in the box including a 18V drill = 350#
Removed bikes = 380#
Filled the fresh water tank = 340#
Emptied fresh water tank = 380#

At the end of this sequence, I ran out of daylight.
Coming from a metrology lab, I'm not nearly done testing. The Sherline scale has enough abnormalities that I question it's accuracy (even though this is the second one they've sent me).

Hope this helps in some way.
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAfraser View Post
The Anderson was on-board, but not adjusted.
I'm not sure that I understand... the Anderson No-Sway WDH was installed (mounted on the trailer and perhaps the plate was pinned on the ball shaft, but was it loose (no tension on the chains), or was it under tension but just not finally adjusted?
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:17 PM   #11
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Front axle of truck on scale (trailer connected); 2420#
Both axles of truck on scale (trailer connected); 5360#
Truck and trailer on scale; 8560#
Trailer only on scale (connected to truck); 3360#
That seems reasonably consistent...

If the "Truck and trailer on scale" is all of the axles, then the whole rig weighed 8560 pounds. The "Trailer only on scale" weight is the portion carried on the trailer axles (3360 pounds); however, the 8560 lb total minus the 5360 lb on the truck axles leaves 3200 lb on the trailer axle.

The difference (160 lb) seems like a lot, but combining multiple scale readings accumulates the errors in the readings... something to keep in mind in these exercises.

What the 3200 pound to 3360 pound value means about axle weight depends on the answer to the question I posted above about the WD system.
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAfraser View Post
My truck normally weighs 4900#, but I can't be sure of it's weight without the trailer on that day. So if I'm doing this right, the calculated tongue weight is (Truck's both axles on scale - assumed truck weight ) or 460#.
That looks right to me... but it's only truly the tongue weight if the WD system was not applying any force at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAfraser View Post
Add to that the trailer only weight from the scale of 3360# and we get a total of 3820#.
That's valid regardless of what the WD is doing.

Or more directly, 8560 pounds complete minus 4900 pounds of truck is 3660 pounds. Hmmm... that's not quite the same as 3820 pounds. The scale errors are maddening, aren't they?
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAfraser View Post
... 380#
Filled the fresh water tank = 340#
Emptied fresh water tank = 380#
...
Hope this helps in some way.
Well, that alone means that a couple hundred pounds of water added to the tank reduced the tongue weight by about 1/5th of water weight. That means the tank is centred behind the effective axle position (midway between the wheel centres) by about 1/5th of the distance from axle to coupler... and the effect of any change in freshwater load can easily be calculated. That's helpful.
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
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OK, so here goes. I'm not totally secure with all this, but I'll give you what I have"..............

At the end of this sequence, I ran out of daylight.
Coming from a metrology lab, I'm not nearly done testing. The Sherline scale has enough abnormalities that I question it's accuracy (even though this is the second one they've sent me).

Hope this helps in some way.
Thanks Tom!
Can't wait til I can make scale runs of my own
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:05 PM   #15
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TAfraser, I don't know what you are questioning on the Sherline. Looks good to me.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:23 PM   #16
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After replacing the gauge on mine, I'm hoping to test it against other Sherlines at the Escape Rally to make sure I didn't mess up.
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Old 11-14-2013, 12:17 AM   #17
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Escape 21 weights

The Anderson was installed, but the chains were not tightened for the measurements I gave. I did run it over the scale twice with the chains set two different ways, but the weight measurements went a different way then what I expected. Reace didn't think they made sense either. I hope to make more runs on the scales, without wearing out my welcome. One other thing, I put my weight on and off the scale and it read correct both ways.

The comment about the fresh water tank placement is right on. It is located between the axles and extends towards the rear. Good call!!

The reason I question the Sherline's accuracy is the following: I put the trailer tongue weight on the scale and received an indication of 380#. I then placed about 200 more pounds on the tongue and it indicated 580#. I then removed the 200# and the scale only returned to about 500#. If I do it again, but only use 100#, the Sherline doesn't return at all. I also received two different measurements depending on weather or not I lowered the trailer tongue onto the scale (only by 2") or raised the scale to the tongue with my hydraulic floor jack. Both methods are recommended in the Sherline directions. The difference was over 100#. In my old line of work, (Metrology) this scale would have been either rejected, or qualified as only being accurate in one direction, using one method. This phenomenon happened using two different, brand new Sherline scales.
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Old 11-14-2013, 07:27 AM   #18
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weight of a 21

The Jeep weighs 5300# with 2 pax, When it had the equipment inside the jeep it was about 5800#, we then transferred the traveling equipment (we are travelers, not campers) into the trailer, Jeep was then about 5300#. With the Anderson hitch connected and adjusted to go down the road we weighed the Jeep at 6000# and the 4 trailer wheels at 3600#. 1800# each side. Then with 1/2 fresh water and some grey plus a couple gallons of black the sherline scale read 550# with no WDH installed and all of our stuff still inside. I consider the weight as we were going down the road as total about 4200# plus the weight of the hitch. After dumping all tanks and removing our food and clothing the tongue weight was the 350 number. The sherline reading seemed to vary with level and chocking.
I hope this makes sense and answers any questions. I do like the positions of the tanks on the 21.
Jack of Tucson
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:56 AM   #19
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Weight of 21

I've got a very basic question to ask. I should already know this, but here goes. With my trailer weighing in at 3360# when connected to the truck, am I only pulling that weight, and carrying the tongue weight , for calculation purposes? I know with this setup, on this day, the axles were only carrying 3360# - without the WDH - and the truck was carrying the rest, but what was I towing, again, for calculation purposes?

And for another question. I said that I couldn't understand the weights using the Anderson, maybe one of you will. Using the WDH, adjusted wrong, with the trailer only on the scale, the trailer weight went down by as much as 200 lbs to around 3160#. I thought that transferring weight off the tongue would put weight on the truck's front axle and the trailer's axles. The trucks front axle weight did go up by 40 lbs. While the trailer was on the scale, I loosened the chains (just checking) while watching the scale weight, and the weight of the trailer went up. The truck weight, including tongue weight, also went down. So what I saw was both the trailer and truck individual weights going down, while the front axle weight went up. The only thing that remained constant was the total weight of truck and trailer. So where did that weight go to? I need to spend more time, not rushed, with that scale.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:01 AM   #20
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I'll let Brian handle that one...
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