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11-30-2018, 07:26 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NA, Arizona
Trailer: 2017 5.0TA
Posts: 549
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Well Optioned 2nd Gen 5.0TA Pin Weight
The Pin weight indicated by the 2017 E.T.I. Owners Manuel on page 14 is shown as 19% to 25%."
2017 E.T.I. Owners Manuel; Chapter 3: Towing and Leveling.
E.T.I references 20% for the 5.0TA Pin Weight in several places.
The bottom line is 20% (total weight of trailer) pin weight for 5th wheel trailers is and has been the golden rule for as long as I can remember. This applies to All 5th wheel trailers regardless of size or weight (Including Bigfoot, Escapes and Scamps).
"2nd gen 5.0" are about 400 lbs heavier than 1st gens and a well optioned 2nd gen 5.0 will easily weigh 4,500 Lbs. @ delivery (Mine was 4,499 lbs., No oven, No underside foam)
So let see:
4,500 lbs. Trailer @ 20% = 900lbs. Pin weight (at orientation ETI est. my actual pin weight sitting in their shop @ around 750 lbs. so I knew to load heavy items up front trying to achieve 20% . )
4,500 lbs. Trailer + 500 lbs(camping gear) @ 20% = 1000lbs. Pin weight (loaded for camping)
1. 1000 lbs. Pin weight (you need to distribute your load forward to achieve 20%)
2. 400 lbs. driver and passenger (along with small personal effects, phones, tablets, rear cameras, safety items ect. )
3. 200lbs hitch weight ( an ultimate hitch is lighter )
4. Now add to this weight all dealer or personal item added to your tow vehicle
(bed liners, line X, tonneau covers, tool boxs, tools, mirrors, running boards, kayak racks ect.)
5. Lastly add everything else you plan to take along in the cab and in the bed of your truck. (dogs or cats, food, crates, fire wood, grills, tables, chairs, fire pits, gazebos, easy ups, bikes, kayaks ect.)
Just add up items 1-5 (YMMV) for a close estimate of your new trucks payload plus any safety margin you would like.
One last note, it takes a conscious effort to achieve a 20% pin weight. Just like a bumper pull trailer you have to distribute your camping gear accordingly. It does not happen by itself.
below clips our from ETI owners manual
The best thing you can do is weigh you rig!
Tin.
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11-30-2018, 09:23 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Bozeman, Montana
Trailer: 2018 5.0TA / 2018 GMC Canyon/Duramax
Posts: 561
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On my return trip from the rally I stopped at local scale and weighed the truck with trailer loaded and then weighed tow vehicle without the trailer hiched. My pin weight came in at 800lbs. I too have well optioned trailer without the foam underneath. Truck and trailer travel well together never feel uneasy.
Always thought if I needed more weight at the pin box I could look at replacing the factory mattress with heavier mattress, look at getting weight under the mattress or as you stated shift weight forward.
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11-30-2018, 10:33 PM
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#3
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent
My pin weight came in at 800lbs.
...
Truck and trailer travel well together never feel uneasy.
Always thought if I needed more weight at the pin box I could look at replacing the factory mattress with heavier mattress, look at getting weight under the mattress or as you stated shift weight forward.
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Adding mass way up at the loft height would be undesirable. Fortunately, you don't need more pin weight. I don't know what your total loaded trailer weight is, but assuming it's not over the 5500 pound limit, 800 pounds is enough.
If you are concerned about the 20% to 25% guideline in the Escape owner's manual, I suggest asking Reace (not just anyone who answers e-mail or the phone at Escape) if he really intends for the pin weight of a 5.0TA to be at least 777 pounds (20% of a base, dry, empty trailer) to as much as 1375 pounds (25% of a trailer at GVWR).
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12-01-2018, 10:23 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Bozeman, Montana
Trailer: 2018 5.0TA / 2018 GMC Canyon/Duramax
Posts: 561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
Adding mass way up at the loft height would be undesirable. Fortunately, you don't need more pin weight. I don't know what your total loaded trailer weight is, but assuming it's not over the 5500 pound limit, 800 pounds is enough.
If you are concerned about the 20% to 25% guideline in the Escape owner's manual, I suggest asking Reace (not just anyone who answers e-mail or the phone at Escape) if he really intends for the pin weight of a 5.0TA to be at least 777 pounds (20% of a base, dry, empty trailer) to as much as 1375 pounds (25% of a trailer at GVWR).
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I'm not concerned and happy with current setup and pin box weight and I have no plans to add any weight. When weighed everything came in well under max numbers for tow vehicle and trailer.
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12-01-2018, 01:39 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NA, Arizona
Trailer: 2017 5.0TA
Posts: 549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
Fortunately, you don't need more pin weight. I don't know what your total loaded trailer weight is, but assuming it's not over the 5500 pound limit, 800 pounds is enough.
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Hi Brian, What Escape documentation are you basing your response on ? Is this what your Escape owner's manual states ? That strange my 2017 E.T.I. Owners Manuel on page 14 is shown as 19% to 25%.
" 2. Calculate the pin load by subtracting the weight of the truck (without trailer attached) from the weight of the truck with the trailer attached. The pin weight thus obtained should be 19% - 25% of the total trailer weight for good towing. The pin weight must not exceed the maximum allowable for your truck. (Consult truck manufacturer’s specifications for your
vehicle)."
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12-01-2018, 01:42 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NA, Arizona
Trailer: 2017 5.0TA
Posts: 549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
If you are concerned about the 20% to 25% guideline in the Escape owner's manual, I suggest asking Reace (not just anyone who answers e-mail or the phone at Escape) if he really intends for the pin weight of a 5.0TA to be at least 777 pounds (20% of a base, dry, empty trailer) to as much as 1375 pounds (25% of a trailer at GVWR).
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Again that is strange as My 2017 E.T.I. Owners Manuel on page 14 is shown as 19% to 25%. Is this what your Escape owner's manual states 20% to 25% ?
Why do feel it necessary to ask Reace and only Reace about the pin weight range when it is clearly stated in the owner's manual ? Do you think the owner's manual is incorrect ? or that Reace is not aware of the information in his own manual ?
Why do you feel it necessary to interpret Reace's intentions when it is clearly stated in the owner's manual and is clearly indicated on each trailers " Vehicle Specification Name Plate" attached inside the closet of every 2nd gen 5.0 and is specific to that trailer ?
As far as trying to correlate the static empty dry weight of a trailer setting in ETI's shop with the pin weight percentage (clearly stated in the owner's manual and on each trailer) of a optioned and loaded trailer ready for towing makes no sense as the two are distinctly different.
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12-01-2018, 01:51 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Central, Pennsylvania
Trailer: Escape#5 2022 E19
Posts: 26,268
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I'm confused, what is the point or is there a question here?
__________________
Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
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12-01-2018, 01:51 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NA, Arizona
Trailer: 2017 5.0TA
Posts: 549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent
I'm not concerned and happy with current setup and pin box weight and I have no plans to add any weight. When weighed everything came in well under max numbers for tow vehicle and trailer.
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Hi Kent, No adding weight is not required to achieve proper pin weight. All that is required is to distribute your weight accordingly. See page 19 in your owner's manual.
"Before Heading Out. Weight Distribution
Proper weight and load distribution is absolutely essential to safe towing. It is necessary to maintain a certain percentage
of gross vehicle weight on the tow vehicle. Common recommendations place approximately 10% - 15% of a loaded weight
on a travel trailer hitch and approximately 20% - 25% on a fifth wheel pin weight. Too much or too little weight upon the
hitch leads to dangerous driving conditions such as sway and reduced tow vehicle control. In no circumstance should the
loaded weight ever exceed the GVWR or the GAWRs. "
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12-01-2018, 03:06 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin
Hi Brian, What Escape documentation are you basing your response on ? Is this what your Escape owner's manual states ? That strange my 2017 E.T.I. Owners Manuel on page 14 is shown as 19% to 25%
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Tin, I agree that the manual gives that weight range. I think that you have summarized and interpreted it well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin
Why do feel it necessary to ask Reace and only Reace about the pin weight range when it is clearly stated in the owner's manual ? Do you think the owner's manual is incorrect ? or that Reace is not aware of the information in his own manual ?
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Yes, the owner's manual appears to be incorrect for the Escape 5.0TA. No, I don't think that Reace is aware that it says this, any more than he was aware that the Escape website incorrectly described the frame construction for many years. In any company there are times that one person does something (such as publishing material) that others in the company are not aware of.
Reace is the designer of all Escape trailers, and in every technical issue Reace has been confirmed as Escape's ultimate authority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin
Why do you feel it necessary to interpret Reace's intentions when it is clearly stated in the owner's manual and is clearly indicated on each trailers " Vehicle Specification Name Plate" attached inside the closet of every 2nd gen 5.0 and is specific to that trailer ?
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Because 20% to 25% makes no sense for the 5.0TA, given its proportions and the fact that it comes out of the factory with a much lower pin weight fraction than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin
As far as trying to correlate the static empty dry weight of a trailer setting in ETI's shop with the pin weight percentage (clearly stated in the owner's manual and on each trailer) of a optioned and loaded trailer ready for towing makes no sense as the two are distinctly different.
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Since the options are not distributed further forward than the mass of the trailer overall, they will not shift the mass distribution forward. The storage spaces are not predominantly far forward, and the water tank is behind the axle, so reasonable loading should not be expected to greatly shift the mass distribution forward.
This situation is similar to the Tow vehicle tire pressure topic, in which the manual provides well-intentioned but inappropriate advice, which is not followed by Escape staff, including Reace himself. This is not unique to Escape - I have seen statements in owner's manuals from major automotive manufacturers which are clearly standard text (used for all models, probably written many years ago, influenced by lawyers) and do not make sense for the model covered by the manual.
I wouldn't have mentioned this at all, realizing that it would be controversial, but a post suggested that another owner had considered adding mass forward just to ballast the front - that would be unfortunate, and I hope that no one does that. Fortunately, most Escape 5.0TA owners have either not noticed this recommendation in the manual, or have reasonably chosen not to follow it.
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12-01-2018, 03:12 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin
"Common recommendations place approximately 10% - 15% of a loaded weight
on a travel trailer hitch and approximately 20% - 25% on a fifth wheel pin weight"
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The wording here (from page 19 of the manual) is important: the range is a common recommendation, not specific to the Escape 5.0TA.
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12-01-2018, 03:57 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Tehachapi, California
Trailer: none
Posts: 515
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If the pin weight is too light, what would the effect be on the ride? Would it be noticeable?
__________________
Greg
Formerly owned a 2007 24' HiLo/ 2003 Tahoe combo. Interested in the 5.0TA
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12-01-2018, 04:44 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Southwick, Massachusetts
Trailer: None, sold my 2014 5.0TA
Posts: 7,124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilola
If the pin weight is too light, what would the effect be on the ride? Would it be noticeable?
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Not to me. Have 40k miles on the trailer, granted it's gen 1, have had zero issues with how the 5th wheel tows. Heaviest the pins been was 750, usually a good deal lower. Conventional hitch as opposed to the Anderson.
__________________
Happy Motoring
Bob
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12-01-2018, 09:20 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Naugatuck, Connecticut
Trailer: 2017 50 TA, 2016 F150, 2.7 Ecoboost
Posts: 1,056
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😂 lm gonna have to carry some bags of concrete in the bed of my 5.0TA to get to the Golden Rule Standard . My Trailer came from ETI with a sticker affixed saying pin weight 10-15% trailer weight. The documentation that came with trailer states 600 lb pin weight for a 4240 lb trailer as delivered. That’s 14% I believe. Now I have never weighed it just going by ETI numbers. 🤔Guess the trailer should tow terrible since the Golden Standard is so violated. So why does it tow so well? Truck and trailer ride almost dead level, I have experienced absolutely no sway or bad manners of any type in l think around 8k miles. I have towed with my tanks full and with empty, dam works good either way. I’m gonna try the concrete next time out and see if it gets even better
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12-01-2018, 11:45 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Vancouver, British Columbia
Trailer: 2009 Escape 17B 2020 Toyota Highlander XLE
Posts: 17,136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chotch
I’m gonna try the concrete next time out and see if it gets even better
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Get cement instead of concrete. Then you can just add water.
__________________
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht
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12-02-2018, 06:44 AM
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#15
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Naugatuck, Connecticut
Trailer: 2017 50 TA, 2016 F150, 2.7 Ecoboost
Posts: 1,056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent
I'm not concerned and happy with current setup and pin box weight and I have no plans to add any weight. When weighed everything came in well under max numbers for tow vehicle and trailer.
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If it works, why fight it? The Golden rule may not be as universal as some believe. I don’t see the dynamics of trailer 37’ long, 20k+, and maybe 5 feet taller the same as our 5.0’s.
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12-02-2018, 07:35 AM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Central, Pennsylvania
Trailer: Escape#5 2022 E19
Posts: 26,268
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Just remember, every extra 200 lbs of weight trailering will impact mpg by 10% estimated.
__________________
Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
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12-02-2018, 07:38 AM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: St. Thomas not BVI., Ontario
Trailer: 2014 Escape 5.0TA / 2016 Ram Eco Diesel 4X4
Posts: 8,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008
I'm confused, what is the point or is there a question here?
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Hi: cpaharley2008... IMHO it's just a solution chasing a problem. There is no concrete rule. Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie
__________________
Quote Bugs Bunny..."Don't take life too seriously, none of us get out of it ALIVE"!!!
'16 Ram Eco D. 4X4 Laramie Longhorn CC & '14 Escape 5.0TA
St.Thomas (Not the Virgin Islands) Ontario
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12-02-2018, 07:40 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Central, Pennsylvania
Trailer: Escape#5 2022 E19
Posts: 26,268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escape artist
Hi: cpaharley2008... IMHO it's just a solution chasing a problem. There is no concrete rule. Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie
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I think you hit it on the head there Alf......... you and the missus going to the rally next May?
__________________
Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
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12-02-2018, 07:49 AM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Naugatuck, Connecticut
Trailer: 2017 50 TA, 2016 F150, 2.7 Ecoboost
Posts: 1,056
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🤔 Maybe the manual is wrong? Not worried about it, it seems they got my trailer right
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12-02-2018, 09:44 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: St. Thomas not BVI., Ontario
Trailer: 2014 Escape 5.0TA / 2016 Ram Eco Diesel 4X4
Posts: 8,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008
I think you hit it on the head there Alf......... you and the missus going to the rally next May?
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Hi: cpaharley2008... I'd like to but want to go to the right coast in July for the Vintage one, then on to NFLD for a tour. Depends on what the Ins. Co. says. The Dr. says it's ok!!! Alf
escape artist N.S. of Lake Erie
__________________
Quote Bugs Bunny..."Don't take life too seriously, none of us get out of it ALIVE"!!!
'16 Ram Eco D. 4X4 Laramie Longhorn CC & '14 Escape 5.0TA
St.Thomas (Not the Virgin Islands) Ontario
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