Lower insulation on the Escape 21'

[Micheal K]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

We don't have a copper condensate line any more, it was replaced with plastic when the original one failed. Unfortunately, the original copper line went into the concrete floor to a floor drain trap, so the new plastic one had to be installed on top of the floor as far as the drain. I was less than amused, but it is just in the furnace room.

Was the condensing furnace a retrofit?
If so, it's probable that the drain line was only designed for AC condensate.

[John in Santa Cruz]

i wonder if anyone has used copper-nickel tubing for propane systems. thats whats used on better automotive brake systems (Mercedes, Volvo, pioneered it in the 1970s), it doesn't fatigue and crack from vibration, and it doesn't corrode.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

We don't have a copper condensate line any more, it was replaced with plastic when the original one failed. Unfortunately, the original copper line went into the concrete floor to a floor drain trap, so the new plastic one had to be installed on top of the floor as far as the drain. I was less than amused, but it is just in the furnace room.

I've found that buried copper lines have lasted 30 or more years. Depends on what's in contact with them. Lines that pass through concrete walls typically corrode there first.

When I installed my own high efficiency furnace I ran the condensate via PVC to my perimeter drain. The gas inspector approved it without comment.

Then I had some high efficiency furnaces put in rental places. I can't legally do gas work if I don't live in the place. The installer did the same as I did at home. Evidently the installer and the gas inspector have a history. Nope, said the inspector, it's acidic and I don't approve of them going into the storm sewer.

So he made the installer put in a pump that pumped the condensate through a cannister with limestone chips in it to supposedly neutralize it. It then dumped into a 2" copper drain. Two years later and there I am removing a corroded and leaking pipe. It's all replaced with ABS now and next week out comes the condensate pump anyway.

I've had copper propane lines in boats, subject to a salt environment, and never had an issue. I'm thinking that I wouldn't worry about the trailer lines, foamed or not.

Ron

[cpaharley2008]

Levitttown, Pa was a planned baby boomer village completed to meet the built up demand of post war spending on new homes. Known as track homes, each one were built on slab with a variety of floor configurations and unfinished upstairs. Relatively cheaply priced the homes had infloor radiant water heat with you guess it, copper pipes. Well it seems the lime in the cement ate holes in the copper and 10-15 years they failed and had to be replaced, with then new style hot air with a/c units. So copper and cement do not mix either....

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by padlin

This is pre foam, the lines look to be copper covered with what looks like plastic wire loom.

Am I seeing (Post #9) leaf springs with center hanger and a two-axle equalizer on a 5.0TA? Say what?

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by cpaharley2008

Levitttown, Pa was a planned baby boomer village completed to meet the built up demand of post war spending on new homes. Known as track homes, each one were built on slab with a variety of floor configurations and unfinished upstairs. Relatively cheaply priced the homes had infloor radiant water heat with you guess it, copper pipes. Well it seems the lime in the cement ate holes in the copper and 10-15 years they failed and had to be replaced, with then new style hot air with a/c units. So copper and cement do not mix either....

My dad was an HVAC guy. When he built our house in the early 50's he installed many many feet of copper tubing in the ceiling which was then plastered. I still remember seeing, a couple of years later, the large damp spot on the ceiling. Must have seemed like a good idea at the time. But then, copper hadn't been in widespread use for many years and seemed to be invincible compared to iron water pipe. I guess Dad found copper's Achilles heel.

Ron

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

If anyone here has pulled or accidentally knocked foam off one of these lines after several years of use, I would be very interested to hear what they found. If the foam was still chemically adhered to the copper and the copper was not discolored green, that would be encouraging. If on the other hand, the foam was not adhered, and there was sign of green discoloration, that would indicate that corrosion was underway.

Most of the copper surface of the propane lines is covered by the split loom cover mentioned earlier, so little of the copper surface should have foam directly touching it; the tee fittings and immediately adjacent tubing would be the parts in contact with foam.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by War Eagle

Am I seeing (Post #9) leaf springs with center hanger and a two-axle equalizer on a 5.0TA? Say what?

From the beginning of the 5.0TA until something like the beginning of 2016, the suspension was tandem Dexter D35 beam axles on leaf springs... with dual spring perches to allow spring-over or spring-under mounting to facilitate height change (primarily to suit different trucks). The equalizer is a Dexter E-Z Flex to soften and dampen the suspension. Then the 5.0TA was switched to the same #10 Torflex suspension/axles used on other Escape models, with the optional spacer kit to adjust height, ending the only use of anything other Torflex on Escape travel trailers.

The hub, bearing, and brake components of the D35 beam axles are identical to those on the #10 Torflex.

[War Eagle]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

From the beginning of the 5.0TA until something like the beginning of 2016, the suspension was tandem Dexter D35 beam axles on leaf springs... with dual spring perches to allow spring-over or spring-under mounting to facilitate height change (primarily to suit different trucks). The equalizer is a Dexter E-Z Flex to soften and dampen the suspension. Then the 5.0TA was switched to the same #10 Torflex suspension/axles used on other Escape models, with the optional spacer kit to adjust height, ending the only use of anything other Torflex on Escape travel trailers. The hub, bearing, and brake components of the D35 beam axles are identical to those on the #10 Torflex.

Thanks! I did not know that. First time it came to my attention and caught me by surprise.

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Most of the copper surface of the propane lines is covered by the split loom cover mentioned earlier, so little of the copper surface should have foam directly touching it; the tee fittings and immediately adjacent tubing would be the parts in contact with foam.

When you say split loom, do you mean the stuff usually applied over wire bundles, which if not split would be a unbroken tube? Or is the loom perforated or webbed? If the latter, I expect that the foam may get through the loom prior to polymerization.

If the former, we have another problem, more or less identical to what happened with our camper. The solid loom will permit pooling of contaminated water at low spots, with attendant potential corrosion. So there may be no escape (sorry) from this problem, foam or no foam.

Presumably, this means of protecting undercarriage propane lines has been used for a while, if not by ETI, then by other manufacturers. Has anyone here seen what goes on inside one of these plastic looms after some years have passed?

I guess that the good news is that at least the leaks will be outside the trailer...

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by Micheal K

Was the condensing furnace a retrofit?
If so, it's probable that the drain line was only designed for AC condensate.

Nope, it was a new high efficiency unit, installed professionally by the supplier. When the fix was applied, the fellow had the gall to give me grief over "not doing annual maintenance" so the problem could have been fixed preemptively earlier. No mention of his responsibility to contact owners of his improperly installed furnaces.

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

i wonder if anyone has used copper-nickel tubing for propane systems. thats whats used on better automotive brake systems (Mercedes, Volvo, pioneered it in the 1970s), it doesn't fatigue and crack from vibration, and it doesn't corrode.

This stuff would be a heck of a lot better idea for lines under a trailer, in my opinion. It is also used in marine heat exchangers used to cool transmissions and engine coolant. Extremely resistant to corrosion, even in contact to salt water and heat. Pure copper is not in the same league.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

When you say split loom, do you mean the stuff usually applied over wire bundles, which if not split would be a unbroken tube?

Yes, that's what I've seen.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

i wonder if anyone has used copper-nickel tubing for propane systems.

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

This stuff would be a heck of a lot better idea for lines under a trailer, in my opinion. It is also used in marine heat exchangers used to cool transmissions and engine coolant. Extremely resistant to corrosion, even in contact to salt water and heat. Pure copper is not in the same league.

That might be better, but I would not want to use a material which is not specifically intended and rated for use with propane. Certainly an RV manufacturer would be well advised to avoid any material not compliant with applicable codes.

Long ago I worked with stainless steel tubing and high-pressure compression fittings. I would certainly rather use them than copper and flare fittings, but I wouldn't do it without a lot of research and confirmation from the product manufacturers of suitability.

Relevant references
from Wikipedia:

• Cupronickel

from the Copper Development Association Inc:

• Fuel Gas: Specifying Copper Tube
• Copper Fuel Gas System: FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions)
• Copper Nickel > Applications: Offshore Oil and Gas Platforms and Processing
• Copper-Nickel Automotive Vehicle Brake Tubing

Although I have not read every word of these documents, I don't see any indication that copper-nickel alloy tubing is recommended or accepted for propane service. Even the application note for oil and gas platforms only mentions using this tubing with water, not oil or gas.

There must be some reason that copper-nickel is not listed as used for propane (or natural gas). It may be related to possible sulfur content, or it may just be cost.

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by AllanEdie

When you say split loom, do you mean the stuff usually applied over wire bundles, which if not split would be a unbroken tube?

Yes, it is a split loom. This is a very short section of it.

Ron

[Brian B-P]

I assume that the split loom cover over the propane tubing is there only to protect it from impact damage by road debris. It could be argued that the under-floor foam insulation will serve the same purpose, so the cover could be omitted if getting foam... but then the foam would stick to the tubing (as it presumably sticks to all of the fittings). That might be an interesting topic of conversation with Reace.

[Ron in BC]

In the situation where the foam had to be cut away to reach wiring or the gas line it'd probably be good if the loom was on the copper line to protect it from damage from knife cuts or damage etc. during foam removal.

Also, this was one of my brake connections when the trailer was only a few months old. I wouldn't want to bury any spliced connections. If a brake stops working I'd want to be able to access the connections. Maybe there aren't any buried connections, I don't know.

Ron

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

In the situation where the foam had to be cut away to reach wiring or the gas line it'd probably be good if the loom was on the copper line to protect it from damage from knife cuts or damage etc. during foam removal.

Also, this was one of my brake connections when the trailer was only a few months old. I wouldn't want to bury any spliced connections. If a brake stops working I'd want to be able to access the connections. Maybe there aren't any buried connections, I don't know.

Ron

That brake wiring is downright scary. First of all, that wire should be tinned, not bare copper in an exposed and critical application like this. Second, the entire joint should have been sealed completely with adhesive shrink tube. Perhaps the untinned wire was on the side provided by Dexter, in which case, shame on them. If all the wire under that trailer is untinned, shame on both ETI and Dexter. In any case, the joint itself is shoddy work.

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That might be better, but I would not want to use a material which is not specifically intended and rated for use with propane. Certainly an RV manufacturer would be well advised to avoid any material not compliant with applicable codes.

Long ago I worked with stainless steel tubing and high-pressure compression fittings. I would certainly rather use them than copper and flare fittings, but I wouldn't do it without a lot of research and confirmation from the product manufacturers of suitability.

Relevant references
from Wikipedia:

• Cupronickel

from the Copper Development Association Inc:

• Fuel Gas: Specifying Copper Tube
• Copper Fuel Gas System: FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions)
• Copper Nickel > Applications: Offshore Oil and Gas Platforms and Processing
• Copper-Nickel Automotive Vehicle Brake Tubing

Although I have not read every word of these documents, I don't see any indication that copper-nickel alloy tubing is recommended or accepted for propane service. Even the application note for oil and gas platforms only mentions using this tubing with water, not oil or gas.

There must be some reason that copper-nickel is not listed as used for propane (or natural gas). It may be related to possible sulfur content, or it may just be cost.

Excellent points. I had a look at some of the tech information about the cupronickel used in marine heat exchangers and other salt water exposures, and it appears that its extreme resistance to corrosion may be a very specific chemical reaction to salt water itself. I can't find any indication that it is ever used in LP lines. Too bad that. Copper may be perfectly resistant to the LP gas, but it certainly is not to all circumstances experienced on the outsides of the lines.

[AllanEdie]

Originally Posted by Ron in BC

Yes, it is a split loom. This is a very short section of it.

Ron

Thanks for the photo Ron. By any chance, did you notice whether the split is always installed in the down direction to ensure no pooling of water in the tube? Ensuring this orientation might be a way of dealing with the potential corrosion problem inside this loom.