Overwelming

[Iowa Dave]

Originally Posted by UncleTim

You pose a good set of questions with this one Dave.

I have been noticing this now for the last decade in all sorts of parks. This year, in late May, the camping and recreation scenes went crazy everywhere I looked. Recreation.gov camping was mostly booked by early June. Permits were cancelled. The problem was compounded by Covid distancing at many campgrounds. Moraine Park, in RMNP, only allowed one quarter of the sites to be filled. I have never seen this many people out everywhere I went this year. Crazy. And then the fires. This next year will be more of the same.

We have seen park under funding now for over 4 presidential administrations, we are to the point backlogged maintenance is not getting done. Roads are in disrepair, bathrooms are rendered useless. Even along the Interstate, bathrooms are not being maintained. We simple must fund these sites and programs. We need money. State and federal money.

We do not fund the Forest Service or other park agencies. I never see the big bad rangers any more. You know the ones. They are fully prepared, packing heat and do not take any sh!t. I don't see them except in emergencies, even in national parks now. There is always one per park in the big parks, but there used to be lots more. The monuments are staffed with volunteers now. Even Dinosaur N.M. which only serves class III-IV whitewater, which is highly technical has volunteers only.

There are no education programs, to educate new users, that I have seen. It's basically an under funded free for all. All rangers, tour guides and services are overwhelmed. Not to mention local communities. They were not designed for this. These places are all under staffed and funded and now crowded. And that severely limits what they can do, or how they can react.

We need better management practices at a regional level. We need a clear definition of what you can do where you can do it, and a plan to open up more areas. ATVs are inundating most dirt road passes now in Colorado. The weird thing is campgrounds pay for themselves many times over in short order. We should want to serve these groups, in many different fashions. We need better resources planning and more areas to do it in, with all the exploding new ways of recreating. We need planning. We need more campgrounds. We have the areas.

Recreation is expanding and new ways of recreating are showing up everywhere. There is massive opportunity for our country too. More people will get in shape, take on a healthy lifestyle and recreate more. This fad will eventually fade and the used RV market is going to be special in a few years.

So in short I would;

1. Fund the parks and agencies.
2. Staff with experienced staff and park police.
3. Fix and maintain existing facilities.
4. Plan out and open new areas for different uses.
5. Better integration between agencies like NPS, BLM and NFS.
6. Develop more open recreation areas that are not as developed but maintained for specific uses.
7. Develop better transportation systems in park systems to handle increased visitor load.
8. Develop more educational opportunities and programs.
9. Stop private campground developers when you can, and reinstall the expertise in the Forest Service. Quit farming it out to private companies. Put the Forest Service back in control. That is what we created the agency for anyway.

It would be a start. And thank you for asking.

Hi Tim
Hard to disagree with sound logic and responsible management techniques. It is disheartening at times but like the clock, the pendulum swings. Patience is a virtue.
Thanks for your responses. I get the news feeds from about 15 DNRs throughout the USA
From extra sheep licenses to people calling for help when they are lost in the Adirondacks, 12 minutes from the parking lot, in sandals with no water and no sense, the news saddens, amuses, heartens, but is never dull when it comes to humans interacting with nature.
I thought this article was interesting so I posted the link. Stay safe
Iowa Dave

[rbryan4]

I've no right to expect my privacy and maintain my ease of access as the number of campers increases. After all, they've just as much right to the great outdoors as I do, even if it's partially induced by the pandemic or some other not-so-permanent reason.

But the funding and staffing of our great outdoor places is another matter altogether. Sadly, it's a joke. You can tell what a society values by what it funds.

[oldwave]

Originally Posted by Iowa Dave

Hi Tim
Hard to disagree with sound logic and responsible management techniques. It is disheartening at times but like the clock, the pendulum swings. Patience is a virtue.
Thanks for your responses. I get the news feeds from about 15 DNRs throughout the USA
From extra sheep licenses to people calling for help when they are lost in the Adirondacks, 12 minutes from the parking lot, in sandals with no water and no sense, the news saddens, amuses, heartens, but is never dull when it comes to humans interacting with nature.
I thought this article was interesting so I posted the link. Stay safe
Iowa Dave

I spent 30 years working for the National Park Service. In the late 90’s I saw the great shrinking of staff, we went from a full time maintenance crew of about 25 to 8 in the course of 8 years. This was in a park that had some of the top visitation rates because it was out side an urban area Two summers ago we were at Zion were there were 14000 visitors a day coming in. There was some relief last year with a new act funding some maintenance back log. Personally I would like to see a New Deal like program employing 1000s of workers in a new ccc corps to improve and restore areas.

[Donna D.]

Originally Posted by rbryan4

But the funding and staffing of our great outdoor places is another matter altogether. Sadly, it's a joke. You can tell what a society values by what it funds.

You can at the State level based on the levies and bond measures taxpayers pass. But, not at the Federal level other than those we choose to vote in that have the same values as we do. Although the Federal budget starts at the Executive Branch.


No political discussion needed or wanted. Please.

[Doug2000]

After reading most of the article I have a greater appreciation for the steep price we pay at Ontario Provincial Parks. Rates are $38 to $48 a night plus registration fee and tax. Add in a bag or 2 of firewood and your $75 a night.

The upside is for the best part, everybody follows the rules and there isn't over crowding. If we want to camp at our favorite parks, reservations need to be made 5 months in advance, if not, we're heading to northern Ontario, but it is nice up there.

[padlin]

Does anyone know if this happened? https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/fy2021...20improvement.

[Oldtimer]

Originally Posted by Dcboyd

Purchase hunting and fishing license in your state. Doesn’t mean you have to use it. That money goes to fund parks and wildlife.

So true my brother myself n 4 childhood friends buy the super combo every year. We get together during dive season to hunt but all we do is sit around the camp table n play 42 always come home very relaxed. This is usually the only time we get out to “ hunt”. Money well spent to support our parks n wildlife

David

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by padlin

Does anyone know if this happened? https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1207/fy2021...20improvement.

Doesn’t look like it. Status here of S.3422 or otherwise known as “Great American Outdoors Act”:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...nate-bill/3422

[Mike Lewis]

Originally Posted by Greg A

We are predicting this crazy period will last about 2 years, and then they’ll start using them less and less. Then the market will be flooded with all these trailers that people paid too much for and prices will dive.

When I heard about the boom in RV sales this was my hunch as well. The RV lifestyle isn't for everyone. People are going to discover that many types of RVs require quite a bit of maintenance, and motorhomes in particular are expensive to operate. After a couple of years the market will be flooded with used ones.

[Donna D.]

While I too expect a flood of used RVs in the next couple of years, I also expect there will be plenty of new people/families who continue to camp. It's a fabulous way for families to have a great time that doesn't usually involve electronics, but nature. IMHO what will help more is when the kids get back into schools. Then the typical Monday-Friday camping will free up, once again.... other than summers, school breaks and holidays. I've avoided camping during those times in the past. Expect I'll avoid them in the future too.

[UncleTim]

Originally Posted by oldwave

Personally I would like to see a New Deal like program employing 1000s of workers in a new ccc corps to improve and restore areas.

Me too! The CCC and the WPA were instrumental in all sorts of projects that helped communities after WWII. My own community in Mishawaka Indiana has a lovely river stone wall the CCC put in and it is still lovely to see and picnic in site of. It runs for miles.

This approach build community awareness at the same time as providing jobs and instilling a sense of pride in individual communities and improving lives. That is priceless!

[Iowa Dave]

Iowa had one of the largest and earliest CCC programs by virtue of the fact that a few years before a dream recreation plan for state parks had been developed and so with “shovel ready plans” they were funded early and completed hundreds of projects, many of which still stand. A nicely funded restoration program fixed up a lot of the aging structures in the parks. Our first state park was at Strawberry Park and was called Devil’s Backbone. One of the CCC buildings there now serves as a volunteer staffed CCC museum open on the weekends during the summer. Hiking the backbone, trout fishing, camping, cooling off setting in a spring fed stream on a hot day all for $16 a night. Cant beat it. Grocery store in Strawberry Point, Big Dave Nading has the gas station and sporting goods store and apples from his orchard by the bushel in the fall.
My Uncle was in the CCC at McGregor Iowa and helped build Pikes Peak State Park. I have some great
Stories on my uncle George too.
Iowa Dave

[oldwave]

The park where I was stationed early n my career outside of Cleveland has magnificent CCC structures built from wormy chestnut and stone. The lodge where I used to produce musical performances was dorm housing for workers. National service investing in the public good needs to be restored.

[dstreight]

Prediction: There will be a glut of used RVs on the used market in 3-years. Its the 3-year rule that seems to have been fairly accurate in prior years and I think even more so with the current RV craze by folks very unfamiliar with all the intricacies of owning, using & maintaining an RV.

1st year: Excitement of said new RV results in considerable use.
2nd year: The newness has worn off and many folks just see it too stressful to pack, unpack, clean (inside and out) and deal with this/that that stopped working and haul it to the dealer/local repair place.
3rd year: Sell it off since its not getting used to justify storage costs, insurance, maintenance, etc.

[HABBERDABBER]

Originally Posted by dstreight

Prediction: There will be a glut of used RVs on the used market in 3-years. Its the 3-year rule that seems to have been fairly accurate in prior years and I think even more so with the current RV craze by folks very unfamiliar with all the intricacies of owning, using & maintaining an RV.

1st year: Excitement of said new RV results in considerable use.
2nd year: The newness has worn off and many folks just see it too stressful to pack, unpack, clean (inside and out) and deal with this/that that stopped working and haul it to the dealer/local repair place.
3rd year: Sell it off since its not getting used to justify storage costs, insurance, maintenance, etc.

Remember after 9/11? We were all supposed to come together and be kind to each other. That lasted for some months, sort of, but not for long.

Humans seek novelty. Here today.....gone tomorrow. Same with the RV's, especially if & when a recession hits hard.

[Dcboyd]

Originally Posted by Oldtimer

So true my brother myself n 4 childhood friends buy the super combo every year. We get together during dive season to hunt but all we do is sit around the camp table n play 42 always come home very relaxed. This is usually the only time we get out to “ hunt”. Money well spent to support our parks n wildlife

David

I am from Texas also, but have done considerable hunting in Colorado. I was surprised that most of Colorados P& W money comes from license fees. And mostly from unwanted out of state people. License tags for non residents run hundreds of dollars.

We mainly sit around and have fun and enjoy the scenery also, but with the knowledge of knowing our license fees directly support our Parks and Wildlife services.
David B.

[Patandlinda]

Originally Posted by Bobbie54

That's true. I camped 22 nights this past summer/fall in various Washington State Parks and never ran into any issues with crowds. In fact, people were less invasive of my space than usual, I assume due to Covid 19. But our big tourist draw on the island, the Deception Pass bridge, brought tons of people there and it was frequently crowded wall to wall.

The tourists on the bridge drive my daughter nuts Bobbie ! Sometimes they need to get off the island for Costco etc. and the crowds and some of the stupid things the tourists do on the bridge doesn’t make her happy . Pat