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Old 02-01-2023, 09:29 AM   #201
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It always should have been a 25 foot where they could have looked at Bigfoot or Airstream for the perfect layout, with a choice of front or rear dinette and front or rear bedroom, like the choices given by Airstream. Our friends have a 23FB Airstream and it’s cramped, but not the 25 foot Airstream or Bigfoot.

When Terry and I saw the layout options we said if they decide on a 25’ model we’ll get our name on the list. We now have a 25’ Bigfoot because Escapes poor choice of layout and size would put it in the cramped quarters of our friends 23’ Airstream. I wonder if they will still have the double-cut corners on the queen bed? It will be a compromise all the way around.

I’d also fire their layout man (probably Karl).

Enjoy,

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Old 02-01-2023, 09:41 AM   #202
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It does Suprise me they dint realize it would not fit until after they build the trailer.
I'm sure they have some lessons learned. IMO they should have held off on a new mold until layouts were finalized. Mock-ups should have been built. You can do a lot with wood and cardboard.
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Old 02-01-2023, 10:23 AM   #203
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I'm sure they have some lessons learned. IMO they should have held off on a new mold until layouts were finalized. Mock-ups should have been built. You can do a lot with wood and cardboard.
Indeed.

From the first public announcement of the project it had two primary defining objectives
  • Walk-around bed
  • Dry bath
Obviously it's very significant when a defining project objective is abandoned, the reality even harsher when a major constraint (the mold with door location) has already been 'fixed'.

I'm willing to bet that Karl's disposition in the back office as this reality came to roost was far from the positive spin and sheepish smile evidenced in the public video. Hard lessons and I suspect more than a few lesions for the development team including Karl.

So now everyone on the team faces the challenge of making lemonade from the lemon. I'm sure more than a few are wishing for a 'clean slate', but that seems unlikely given the mold investment, it'll be interesting to see what form the lemonade takes. Hopefully an attractive product absent evidence of compromise is the outcome.
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Old 02-01-2023, 11:47 AM   #204
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Mock-ups should have been built. You can do a lot with wood and cardboard.
Absolutely. I would have expected an interior design to be fully tested on something resembling a television set before committing to a mold.

They should have used CAD (Cardboard Aided Design) like my friend Steve Roberts did for his boat.
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Old 02-01-2023, 12:00 PM   #205
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Hopefully an attractive product absent evidence of compromise is the outcome.
My bet is this bath redirection will soon be an afterthought with many happy owners heading down the road enjoying their 23.
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Old 02-01-2023, 12:11 PM   #206
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Twin beds would be nice, but not enough to justify replacing my 21 with a 23. No dry bath, no 23. Probably save me twenty or thirty thousand dollars.
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Old 02-01-2023, 01:26 PM   #207
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Personally, I like the idea of a wet bath over a dry bath...but I don't think my opinion represents the typical customer considering the E23.

I've always thought each model currently did a good job of serving a specific market niche:

E17: Direct competition to Casita/Scamp, appeals to the minimalist or someone who wants the lightest weight/most agile option.

E19: Offers all the features of larger trailers in a small, easy-to-tow package. Serves as a strong competitor to premium teardrops. One of very few tandem axle models in this size class.

E21C: Well suited as a small couples trailer and very useable for extended traveling while maintaining a relatively small size.

E21NE: Family-friendly version of the E19.

5.0: One of very few moulded FG and true 1/2 ton towable 5th wheels available. Shares the same virtues as the 21C.

The original E23 concept made a lot of sense from a marketing perspective, as it offered a logical upgrade path from the 21 by offering both a walkaround queen and dry bath....which I can see being very desirable to target customers. By using the identical wet bath from the 21C, that leaves the walkaround bed, and perhaps a slightly larger kitchen/dining area as the only big advantages over it's smaller (and presumably significantly less expensive) sibling. I would think that it going to make it much more challenging for ETI to effectively market the E23 against most of the competition.

Than again, the Oliver is only available with a wet bath as well. Maybe this change won't be as much of a deal breaker as I suspect it might be....
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Old 02-01-2023, 02:10 PM   #208
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The original E23 concept made a lot of sense from a marketing perspective, as it offered a logical upgrade path from the 21 by offering both a walkaround queen and dry bath....which I can see being very desirable to target customers. By using the identical wet bath from the 21C, that leaves the walkaround bed, and perhaps a slightly larger kitchen/dining area as the only big advantages over it's smaller (and presumably significantly less expensive) sibling. I would think that it going to make it much more challenging for ETI to effectively market the E23 against most of the competition.
I agree with your sentiments. Don’t forget about the twin bed layout though. That is probably going to appeal to quite a few buyers.
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Old 02-01-2023, 04:24 PM   #209
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they should have held off on a new mold until layouts were finalized. Mock-ups should have been built.

You can do a lot with wood and cardboard.
And a hot melt glue gun.

A lot of my boats were mocked up not only with cardboard but also 1/8" plywood.

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Old 02-01-2023, 05:03 PM   #210
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We bought a Bigfoot 25 RQ for two reasons, walk around queen and a relatively roomy dry bath, with cabinets and a mirror with counter space and a sink. Not disappointed . Same price range that I expect the 23 will be.
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Old 02-01-2023, 05:21 PM   #211
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If a dry bath is not a practical solution for the 23, I would at least try to fit the largest wet bath possible (larger than the 21C's). They could include innovative features like waterproof cabinets and entry door (no shower curtain necessary), under sink storage, an integrated towel rack, maybe ducted heat, etc. That might serve as an acceptable compromise for potential customers. It would also allow ETI to state that the 23 as features "The largest wet bath ever installed in an Escape" or "Roomiest wet bath in the industry" or similar.
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Old 02-01-2023, 09:54 PM   #212
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If a dry bath is not a practical solution for the 23, I would at least try to fit the largest wet bath possible (larger than the 21C's). They could include innovative features like waterproof cabinets and entry door (no shower curtain necessary), under sink storage, an integrated towel rack, maybe ducted heat, etc. That might serve as an acceptable compromise for potential customers. It would also allow ETI to state that the 23 as features "The largest wet bath ever installed in an Escape" or "Roomiest wet bath in the industry" or similar.
This is a very cogent observation. The E21C bathroom is small. At 47x27" it is actually 81 square inches smaller than the bathroom in our 17' Casita Spirit Deluxe (45x30") was! Its fixtures are about the same as the Casita's, if perhaps a little chintzier. If you're going to offer a wet bath in the E23, then not only make the bathroom larger, but make the fixtures more robust and appealing.

Since you've already got the molds, which presumably are a considerable investment, how about letting your designers go a little wild and make the E23 different from the existing Escape lines? Maybe much larger windows? More innovative seating? How about a Murphy bed on one end? You could do a lot without making new molds.

I almost bought an inTech Sol Horizon for its dramatic front bay window and comfortable dinette, plus a spacious kitchen with 'farmer's sink'—and it's only 19' long. Made the Escapes look positively old-fashioned. Of course they aren't molded fiberglass, but they are intriguing.
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Old 02-01-2023, 10:09 PM   #213
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Easy to second guess, but after some CAD and model bulding, I'm surprised the next step wasn't building a full size mockup with normal wood framing. Seems like that would allow layout testing without having to invest in the mold.
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Old 02-01-2023, 10:13 PM   #214
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A 1937 Auburn looks old fashioned to some, to others it’s work of art and it’s timeless beauty far exceeds 99% of the cars built in the last 10 years and on the road today. To each his own, I’ll stick with the 21. Where’s my Kool aide dear?
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Old 02-02-2023, 12:59 PM   #215
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from Hugh--I'm surprised the next step wasn't building a full size mockup with normal wood framing. Seems like that would allow layout testing without having to invest in the mold.

Yeah, and how would that minimize investment and maximize profit, eh?

I LOVE my Escape, and marvel each camping morning and night that it belongs to me--but every time someone asks me about it, I rave, and then include a caution about the current state of the company. And murmur to myself a sincere thank you to the original owners.
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Old 02-02-2023, 01:41 PM   #216
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I LOVE my Escape, and marvel each camping morning and night that it belongs to me--but every time someone asks me about it, I rave, and then include a caution about the current state of the company. And murmur to myself a sincere thank you to the original owners.
Inquiring minds want to know, especially us newbies. What's up with the company as currently managed? I thought our experience was pretty good.
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Old 02-02-2023, 02:37 PM   #217
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I have purchased Escapes from both the original owners (Tammy and Reace) as well as the current owners, managed by Karl. I see little differences in both the quality as well as after delivery service. Just my $.02 worth....
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Old 02-02-2023, 02:41 PM   #218
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Old 02-02-2023, 03:59 PM   #219
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I have purchased Escapes from both the original owners (Tammy and Reace) as well as the current owners, managed by Karl. I see little differences in both the quality as well as after delivery service. Just my $.02 worth....
Absolutely, there were problems from time-to-time in both eras but in the manufacturing business that's life.

There isn't any other brand trailer that I'd rather have.

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Old 02-02-2023, 07:25 PM   #220
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Reace and Tammy were unique. In many respects they treated owners like family. Those of us who've been here awhile could share dozens of stories about it. Of course when new owners come along they can run the business as they see fit. But it strains credulity to imply there's very little difference in CS between then and now. I've read this forum.
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