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02-01-2023, 09:29 AM
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#201
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lanesboro, MN, between Whalan and Fountain, Minnesota
Trailer: 2016 Bigfoot 25RQ - (2018 Escape 5.0 sold)
Posts: 2,155
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It always should have been a 25 foot where they could have looked at Bigfoot or Airstream for the perfect layout, with a choice of front or rear dinette and front or rear bedroom, like the choices given by Airstream. Our friends have a 23FB Airstream and it’s cramped, but not the 25 foot Airstream or Bigfoot.
When Terry and I saw the layout options we said if they decide on a 25’ model we’ll get our name on the list. We now have a 25’ Bigfoot because Escapes poor choice of layout and size would put it in the cramped quarters of our friends 23’ Airstream. I wonder if they will still have the double-cut corners on the queen bed? It will be a compromise all the way around.
I’d also fire their layout man (probably Karl).
Enjoy,
Perry
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02-01-2023, 09:41 AM
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#202
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Burlington Twp., New Jersey
Trailer: 2010 Escape 19
Posts: 7,126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY
It does Suprise me they dint realize it would not fit until after they build the trailer.
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I'm sure they have some lessons learned. IMO they should have held off on a new mold until layouts were finalized. Mock-ups should have been built. You can do a lot with wood and cardboard.
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02-01-2023, 10:23 AM
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#203
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: East of Austin, Texas
Trailer: 2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 SuperCab
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327
I'm sure they have some lessons learned. IMO they should have held off on a new mold until layouts were finalized. Mock-ups should have been built. You can do a lot with wood and cardboard.
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Indeed.
From the first public announcement of the project it had two primary defining objectives Obviously it's very significant when a defining project objective is abandoned, the reality even harsher when a major constraint (the mold with door location) has already been 'fixed'.
I'm willing to bet that Karl's disposition in the back office as this reality came to roost was far from the positive spin and sheepish smile evidenced in the public video. Hard lessons and I suspect more than a few lesions for the development team including Karl.
So now everyone on the team faces the challenge of making lemonade from the lemon. I'm sure more than a few are wishing for a 'clean slate', but that seems unlikely given the mold investment, it'll be interesting to see what form the lemonade takes. Hopefully an attractive product absent evidence of compromise is the outcome.
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02-01-2023, 11:47 AM
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#204
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Silicon Valley, California
Trailer: 2023 Escape 21C
Posts: 139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327
Mock-ups should have been built. You can do a lot with wood and cardboard.
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Absolutely. I would have expected an interior design to be fully tested on something resembling a television set before committing to a mold.
They should have used CAD (Cardboard Aided Design) like my friend Steve Roberts did for his boat.
__________________
Inhabiting "Peregination", an E21C. Take a micro-vacation with nature sounds!
--... ...--
ad·ven·ture: (noun) An endeavor in which more than half of the fun is in telling the tale afterwards.
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02-01-2023, 12:00 PM
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#205
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Burlington Twp., New Jersey
Trailer: 2010 Escape 19
Posts: 7,126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex
Hopefully an attractive product absent evidence of compromise is the outcome.
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My bet is this bath redirection will soon be an afterthought with many happy owners heading down the road enjoying their 23.
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02-01-2023, 12:11 PM
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#206
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Jeromesville, Ohio
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21' pulled with 2014 Silverado Crewcab
Posts: 853
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__________________
Carl,
"Isn't it amazing how much stuff we get done the day before vacation?"
Zig Ziglar
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02-01-2023, 01:26 PM
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#207
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Trailer: 2023 E19
Posts: 290
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Personally, I like the idea of a wet bath over a dry bath...but I don't think my opinion represents the typical customer considering the E23.
I've always thought each model currently did a good job of serving a specific market niche:
E17: Direct competition to Casita/Scamp, appeals to the minimalist or someone who wants the lightest weight/most agile option.
E19: Offers all the features of larger trailers in a small, easy-to-tow package. Serves as a strong competitor to premium teardrops. One of very few tandem axle models in this size class.
E21C: Well suited as a small couples trailer and very useable for extended traveling while maintaining a relatively small size.
E21NE: Family-friendly version of the E19.
5.0: One of very few moulded FG and true 1/2 ton towable 5th wheels available. Shares the same virtues as the 21C.
The original E23 concept made a lot of sense from a marketing perspective, as it offered a logical upgrade path from the 21 by offering both a walkaround queen and dry bath....which I can see being very desirable to target customers. By using the identical wet bath from the 21C, that leaves the walkaround bed, and perhaps a slightly larger kitchen/dining area as the only big advantages over it's smaller (and presumably significantly less expensive) sibling. I would think that it going to make it much more challenging for ETI to effectively market the E23 against most of the competition.
Than again, the Oliver is only available with a wet bath as well. Maybe this change won't be as much of a deal breaker as I suspect it might be....
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02-01-2023, 02:10 PM
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#208
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Burlington Twp., New Jersey
Trailer: 2010 Escape 19
Posts: 7,126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selkirk
The original E23 concept made a lot of sense from a marketing perspective, as it offered a logical upgrade path from the 21 by offering both a walkaround queen and dry bath....which I can see being very desirable to target customers. By using the identical wet bath from the 21C, that leaves the walkaround bed, and perhaps a slightly larger kitchen/dining area as the only big advantages over it's smaller (and presumably significantly less expensive) sibling. I would think that it going to make it much more challenging for ETI to effectively market the E23 against most of the competition.
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I agree with your sentiments. Don’t forget about the twin bed layout though. That is probably going to appeal to quite a few buyers.
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02-01-2023, 04:24 PM
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#209
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: North Van., British Columbia
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19, sold; 2019 Escape 21, Sept. 2019
Posts: 8,744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327
they should have held off on a new mold until layouts were finalized. Mock-ups should have been built.
You can do a lot with wood and cardboard.
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And a hot melt glue gun.
A lot of my boats were mocked up not only with cardboard but also 1/8" plywood.
Ron
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02-01-2023, 05:03 PM
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#210
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Kent, Ohio
Trailer: 2017 21c Sold, 2023 Bigfoot 25RQ
Posts: 1,382
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We bought a Bigfoot 25 RQ for two reasons, walk around queen and a relatively roomy dry bath, with cabinets and a mirror with counter space and a sink. Not disappointed . Same price range that I expect the 23 will be.
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02-01-2023, 05:21 PM
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#211
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Trailer: 2023 E19
Posts: 290
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If a dry bath is not a practical solution for the 23, I would at least try to fit the largest wet bath possible (larger than the 21C's). They could include innovative features like waterproof cabinets and entry door (no shower curtain necessary), under sink storage, an integrated towel rack, maybe ducted heat, etc. That might serve as an acceptable compromise for potential customers. It would also allow ETI to state that the 23 as features "The largest wet bath ever installed in an Escape" or "Roomiest wet bath in the industry" or similar.
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02-01-2023, 09:54 PM
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#212
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Site Team
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Framingham, Massachusetts
Trailer: 2019 Escape 21C, NTU April 2022
Posts: 1,023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selkirk
If a dry bath is not a practical solution for the 23, I would at least try to fit the largest wet bath possible (larger than the 21C's). They could include innovative features like waterproof cabinets and entry door (no shower curtain necessary), under sink storage, an integrated towel rack, maybe ducted heat, etc. That might serve as an acceptable compromise for potential customers. It would also allow ETI to state that the 23 as features "The largest wet bath ever installed in an Escape" or "Roomiest wet bath in the industry" or similar.
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This is a very cogent observation. The E21C bathroom is small. At 47x27" it is actually 81 square inches smaller than the bathroom in our 17' Casita Spirit Deluxe (45x30") was! Its fixtures are about the same as the Casita's, if perhaps a little chintzier. If you're going to offer a wet bath in the E23, then not only make the bathroom larger, but make the fixtures more robust and appealing.
Since you've already got the molds, which presumably are a considerable investment, how about letting your designers go a little wild and make the E23 different from the existing Escape lines? Maybe much larger windows? More innovative seating? How about a Murphy bed on one end? You could do a lot without making new molds.
I almost bought an inTech Sol Horizon for its dramatic front bay window and comfortable dinette, plus a spacious kitchen with 'farmer's sink'—and it's only 19' long. Made the Escapes look positively old-fashioned. Of course they aren't molded fiberglass, but they are intriguing.
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02-01-2023, 10:09 PM
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#213
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Trailer: 2022 Escape 21C
Posts: 262
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Easy to second guess, but after some CAD and model bulding, I'm surprised the next step wasn't building a full size mockup with normal wood framing. Seems like that would allow layout testing without having to invest in the mold.
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02-01-2023, 10:13 PM
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#214
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Benton County, Iowa
Trailer: 2013 Escape 21 Classic Number 6, pulled by 2018 Toyota Highlander
Posts: 8,235
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A 1937 Auburn looks old fashioned to some, to others it’s work of art and it’s timeless beauty far exceeds 99% of the cars built in the last 10 years and on the road today. To each his own, I’ll stick with the 21. Where’s my Kool aide dear?
Iowa Dave
__________________
Ain’t no trouble jacking a double Burma Shave
Dave
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02-02-2023, 12:59 PM
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#215
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Placerville, California
Trailer: 2018 Escape 17A double dinette
Posts: 1,518
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from Hugh--I'm surprised the next step wasn't building a full size mockup with normal wood framing. Seems like that would allow layout testing without having to invest in the mold.
Yeah, and how would that minimize investment and maximize profit, eh?
I LOVE my Escape, and marvel each camping morning and night that it belongs to me--but every time someone asks me about it, I rave, and then include a caution about the current state of the company. And murmur to myself a sincere thank you to the original owners.
__________________
--Time and trouble will tame an advanced young woman, but an advanced older woman is uncontrollable by any earthly force. --Dorothy Sayers
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02-02-2023, 01:41 PM
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#216
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Site Team
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: Idaho Falls, Idaho
Trailer: 2023 Escape 5.0TA
Posts: 810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h2owmn
I LOVE my Escape, and marvel each camping morning and night that it belongs to me--but every time someone asks me about it, I rave, and then include a caution about the current state of the company. And murmur to myself a sincere thank you to the original owners.
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Inquiring minds want to know, especially us newbies. What's up with the company as currently managed? I thought our experience was pretty good.
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02-02-2023, 02:37 PM
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#217
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Central, Pennsylvania
Trailer: Escape#5 2022 E19
Posts: 26,268
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I have purchased Escapes from both the original owners (Tammy and Reace) as well as the current owners, managed by Karl. I see little differences in both the quality as well as after delivery service. Just my $.02 worth....
__________________
Jim
Sometime life gets in the way of living.......
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02-02-2023, 02:41 PM
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#218
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Naples, New York
Trailer: 2020 Esacpe 19'(Hillbilly Heaven) ETI best named trailer of the year
Posts: 1,204
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02-02-2023, 03:59 PM
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#219
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: North Van., British Columbia
Trailer: 2014 Escape 19, sold; 2019 Escape 21, Sept. 2019
Posts: 8,744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpaharley2008
I have purchased Escapes from both the original owners (Tammy and Reace) as well as the current owners, managed by Karl. I see little differences in both the quality as well as after delivery service. Just my $.02 worth....
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Absolutely, there were problems from time-to-time in both eras but in the manufacturing business that's life.
There isn't any other brand trailer that I'd rather have.
Ron
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02-02-2023, 07:25 PM
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#220
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Site Team
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Canyon Lake, Texas
Trailer: 2015 19 "Past Tents", 2021 F150 Lariat 2.7L EB
Posts: 10,222
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Reace and Tammy were unique. In many respects they treated owners like family. Those of us who've been here awhile could share dozens of stories about it. Of course when new owners come along they can run the business as they see fit. But it strains credulity to imply there's very little difference in CS between then and now. I've read this forum.
__________________
"You can't buy happiness, but you can buy an RV. And that is pretty close."
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