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Old 03-10-2023, 10:45 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EscapingDan View Post
Worked in engineering for 30 years FWIW … but the standard practice everywhere, from instrumentation, to automotive, aerospace and RV’s is to CAD it out, then build out several prototypes - just as Escape is doing. Nobody has ‘ergonomic experts’, I’ve never seen such a job or person purporting skills, but what we all do is pass those protos around (or walk in/around them) until you get a feeling for where you want this to go, based on costing, build, end user experience and so on. But mockups are necessary, I have a full professional VR rig and can build you a trailer in 3D using Blender you can walk around virtually, and I guarantee you’d still find a million issues if you tried to slam that into production without protos (they’re not called mockups). Three is the typical amount.
If they hadn't been called mockups at one time I wouldn't have used the term. Besides mockup/prototypes, who cares, the point is a simple mockup/prototype should have been utilized to avoid the pitfall of the expensive fiberglass molds they encountered. They had a couple of other good layouts that would have worked at 23' though.

Ergonomics has been used in the automotive and air industries for decades. And yes, there are experts that are paid dearly, even in todays CAD evironment. Terry's son is an engineer team leader in the agricultural industry, mainly with operator cabs, and we've had numerous discussions about ergonomics.

We've had a number of 24-25' campers and I thought 23' might not work when I first heard they were going to have a front bed/rear dinette. Plus, I've been in a number of 25' Airstreams and now have had two 25' Bigfoots with the front bed/rear dinette setup and subtracting two feet with a dry bath would create a cramped camper. Our friends have a 23' Airstream FB with dry bath and it's cramped, but front bed/rear bath, not front bed rear dinette. Escape could have chosen that layout and it would have worked, but not front bed/rear dinette.

Enjoy,

Perry
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Old 03-11-2023, 12:09 AM   #262
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"Mock-up" is certainly used in UK English in engineering work, so I suspect it came from Karl's usage, who I believe is Irish and generally uses UK terms. My first engineering job was for railways in the UK and they would call it a mock-up when they built a full-scale model of a proposed train carriage design, to work out the style choices. This just triggered a funny memory of it, hence my interjection. As you were!
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Old 03-11-2023, 11:01 AM   #263
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<avoiding getting in another internet argument about pointless minutia>

Though I still believe there wasn’t a mistake being made in getting the mold, the size and shape was probably the primary requirement, so then it becomes a problem of how to make it work.

Meanwhile they’ve posted another update. Looks good, I’d take the double twin version, I like the open space and the combined stretched bathroom is as good as can be done.

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Old 03-11-2023, 11:56 AM   #264
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Thumbs up A definite improvement, IMO

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.... Meanwhile they’ve posted another update.....
The floorplan, IMO, is getting better, especially with mention of moving the electrical equipment to the dinette bench to allow for a "larder" (pantry) in the galley.

One would hope there's little need for frequent access of the electrical equipment itself, particularly if the available remote control / monitoring panels / apps for that equipment are utilized. I hope that the under-bench spaces on both side walls can be kept open, that would lend to exterior hatches for storage of 'dirty' equipment used outdoors.

Convenient galley storage, on the other hand, is always welcome (I'm ignoring minutia like the fridge door-swing direction). Given the wide aisle one might hope that a tall full-extension pull-out pantry be made available as an option to a hinged-door storage area there (those allow fantastic utilization of deep but narrow cabinet spaces).

It's easy to imagine owner customization of the generous under-bed volume to suite individual storage needs. The 'walk-around' aspect strikes me as a real plus for utilization of that storage space. It's also easy to imagine an equally appealing twin bed arrangement in this, for folks so inclined.

The look / 'feel' of the interior is much more open / airy than previous schemes, befitting the extra length and width compared to other ETI offerings. The re-configured passenger side without any full-height walls contributes significantly to that, IMO.

To my eye this is starting to look like something that would have genuine appeal for a couple seeking a pleasant / practical environment with generous space for two occupants over an extended time and who enjoy occasional entertaining of guests.
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Old 03-11-2023, 12:12 PM   #265
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This is looking SO much better. I prefer a wet bath, especially when you get a lot more counter space as shown here. And I think moving all the electronics to the benches is a great idea too. It's better to have that easy access area for things that are needed frequently.

One little issue I still see is that the seating arrangement is a little awkward if a couple wants to sit opposite each other. The seat immediately on the left as you walk in doesn't have much leg room. Probably would need to try it out. Also personally I would want the fridge to open to the kitchen, not the dinette. But maybe those doors can be reversed.

I hope the next prototype will show a twin version, and maybe with a front window too.
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Old 03-11-2023, 12:27 PM   #266
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I liked that electronics slide out as a clever idea but yeah no way it would make final cut. It’s just a proto so the a lot of the materials are temporary, but I like the clean look of the simple butted panels without all the wood and trim pieces. In a house regular cabinets look great in the bigger space, but conventional cabinet design in a RV is too busy to my eye. Airstreams look so great inside because they minimize that, but for many reasons OEM’s for for it in production for cost reasons.

The dinette area looks a little small - but cosy - no doubt stemming from the room needed for the bed + bath.
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Old 03-11-2023, 12:29 PM   #267
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Quote:
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"Mock-up" is certainly used in UK English in engineering work, so I suspect it came from Karl's usage, who I believe is Irish and generally uses UK terms. My first engineering job was for railways in the UK and they would call it a mock-up when they built a full-scale model of a proposed train carriage design, to work out the style choices. This just triggered a funny memory of it, hence my interjection. As you were!
I agree. A bit of a fading concept now with the reliance of CAD to give anything and everything feedback. But still used for small production and shops that lack the expertise or equipment to do all development by CAD.

I've introduced the concept of "mock up" to classes of engineering students with CAD skills now far beyond mine and they were quick to grasp the concept.

Using wood, 1/8" plywood, cardboard and lots of hot melt glue can create a 3D model that provides much more "real life" feedback than any computer model can.

If I'd have had access to a 23 shell I have no doubt at all that I'd have gone that route. Works well for boats and I'm sure that it'd work well for getting a feel for the viability of different spacial arrangements.

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Old 03-11-2023, 12:51 PM   #268
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I can see the new lay out being sold as a twin bed also. would not take much to do that and make better use of the room. it's a little tight on driver's side getting around to side of bed.
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Old 03-11-2023, 01:36 PM   #269
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I was on the fence when deciding to order new. Decided to stick with E19. I'm single, I should keep it(STUFF) down. Like that it fits in the 2 parking places(with hitch rack). Want to keep my Tacoma, etc.
If I was single, I think I like the 19 with the permanent bed up front and dinette in rear. brings you bed down to 44" But your dinette up to 60" . just something to consider.
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Old 03-11-2023, 02:16 PM   #270
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Old 03-11-2023, 09:33 PM   #271
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Interesting

Very interesting how the layout has changed. Looks like they are still trying to make the most use of space. I like the idea of the pull out drawers for storage. The placement of the "stove" oven seems like it is not the best use of space. If I were buying, I would opt for the twin bed but it will be a great move for Escape to offer a walk around bed.



It would be great to see it in "real life'. Yes, it looks like the dinette is a bit off but I think that is the same as one of the Bigfoot layouts on their dinette if I remember correctly. That fridge looks huge in the space but may not be that much bigger?



Looking forward to seeing then next prototype.
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Old 03-12-2023, 09:15 AM   #272
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I assume the wheels are in the way of switching the bathroom & the refrigerator. Switching would put each in a much better location. Still, I love the counter space. None of the original layouts had enough.
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Old 03-12-2023, 10:22 AM   #273
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I assume the wheels are in the way of switching the bathroom & the refrigerator. Switching would put each in a much better location. Still, I love the counter space. None of the original layouts had enough.
Contrariwise, I like the bathroom close to the bed, as it is. As I've said before, I'd make the bathroom larger than the E21C's, which they have just transposed (moving the door to the side). It's even smaller than the Casita's!
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Old 03-12-2023, 11:35 AM   #274
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One of the things that my wife likes better about the 21C is that the bathroom is out of the way of the person using the kitchen. She never liked having to move out of the way of the bathroom door. We all have our likes and dislikes.

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Old 03-12-2023, 12:21 PM   #275
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If I was single, I think I like the 19 with the permanent bed up front and dinette in rear. brings you bed down to 44" But your dinette up to 60" . just something to consider.

I personally don't care for looking in the door at my bed. I also have been working on using the table as a "office". So nicer days sit & watch the world from there(keep an eye on my aussies if in an exercise pen outside). As far as a smaller bed, I did this. Now a Full with storage for bedding & my rolled up jeans mostly. "Sailboat type" holding for things on top. As I'm one for changing from work pants to dresser to be seen in Public. It can/will come out into my new one. All my work on the raised dinning has to stay with old
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Old 03-12-2023, 12:37 PM   #276
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This is looking SO much better. I prefer a wet bath, especially when you get a lot more counter space as shown here. And I think moving all the electronics to the benches is a great idea too. It's better to have that easy access area for things that are needed frequently.
.

I'm thinking as much as ETI is most likely trying to stay away from another fiberglass bath mold. To put the wet bath BACK in the 23', they should lengthen it by at least 6". That 6" room in front of the toilet would be huge.
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Old 03-12-2023, 12:47 PM   #277
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I assume the wheels are in the way of switching the bathroom & the refrigerator. Switching would put each in a much better location. Still, I love the counter space. None of the original layouts had enough.
My reason for the change of positions is I'd rather have the refrigerator closer to the prep area of the counter than the dining table. Speaking of the dining table, since the version in the video doesn't show one. Seems like a decent sized table would take up enough space to get in the way.

While I like the bathroom close to the bed in the 21C, with the 23 having it across from the door makes for less tracking going to it from the outside.

As to the dry bath problem I wonder if something like the wet/dry bath with pivoting wall used in the might be an interesting compromise.
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Old 03-12-2023, 03:11 PM   #278
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I assume the wheels are in the way of switching the bathroom & the refrigerator. Switching would put each in a much better location.
Yah I was thinking about that wheel well preventing a longer bath. But if they had a built in bath seat that molded around the wheel well that should work - but would require a new bath insert. He mentioned reusing the 21C wet bath. Escapes are mid-priced configurable trailers so they have to be mindful of build costs.
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Old 03-12-2023, 03:25 PM   #279
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Personally I would like the stove and possible splatter or mist as far away from the bedding as possible. So the stove near the door would be my preference.
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Old 03-12-2023, 03:30 PM   #280
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It was worth a shot, they could probably pull it off if they build a custom shower/toilet insert (say a 1.5 size unit with a tambour door or something), but for cost and manufacturing they use COTS inserts.
ETI makes its own wet bath liners, designed specifically for the trailer model, not commercial off-the-shelf items for this purpose. Fundamentally, they are a fiberglass and assembly shop - moulding large fiberglass items is about the only thing they don't farm out.
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