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Old 09-19-2020, 10:22 AM   #21
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Well, even if Myron didn't need it I appreciate the continuing education, Jon, so Thank You.

And upon re-reading the OP I see I was in error - Myron makes reference to a Morningstar solar controller so he must be charging with solar, too.

Returning the thread to The Old Geezer ....
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Old 09-20-2020, 04:59 PM   #22
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Continuing (my) education - - Now that I am waiting for my new lithium battery to be delivered am beginning to wonder about a few related things. Like, when I install it in my tongue box should I get, or build a dedicated battery box for it? Assuming it will not fit in the current bat box. Seems prudent to make it less visible, given it is a very desirable and expensive thing.

Suppose I could install it under the dinette seat. It is sealed. Certainly more secure, and frees up tongue box space but, thinking that creates too much unwanted rewiring work. My Morningstar and cables to the portable solar are in the box.
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Old 09-20-2020, 06:44 PM   #23
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...
Seems prudent to make it less visible, given it is a very desirable and expensive thing.
...
Considering the high price and general ease of theft...

Perhaps a heavy coat of black paint to hide all markings and to make it look more like a lead acid battery? Fake "Interstate" label, too.
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Old 09-20-2020, 06:59 PM   #24
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Suppose I could install it under the dinette seat. It is sealed.
Lithium-ion batteries do not vent in normal operation, or even when overcharged... but occasionally things go very wrong. While the LiFePO4 (or "LFP") type used in RVs is more stable than the types used in electric cars (mostly NMC and NCA), I would still be inclined to put it in a box vented to the outside if the battery is installed inside. Every electric car puts the battery is a substantial box with controlled venting, and did so even when some had LFP batteries.

Inside can be better for temperature control, particularly in the cold.

If a lead-acid battery on the tongue is replaced with a lighter lithium-ion battery further back, the trailer's mass is concentrated more centrally (which is good for stability), but it will also be further rearward so less tongue weight... balance adjustment should be considered.
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Old 09-20-2020, 07:22 PM   #25
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Lithium-ion batteries do not vent in normal operation, or even when overcharged... but occasionally things go very wrong. While the LiFePO4 (or "LFP") type used in RVs is more stable than the types used in electric cars (mostly NMC and NCA), I would still be inclined to put it in a box vented to the outside if the battery is installed inside. Every electric car puts the battery is a substantial box with controlled venting, and did so even when some had LFP batteries.

Inside can be better for temperature control, particularly in the cold.

If a lead-acid battery on the tongue is replaced with a lighter lithium-ion battery further back, the trailer's mass is concentrated more centrally (which is good for stability), but it will also be further rearward so less tongue weight... balance adjustment should be considered.
This is particularly important with the 19. I believe the batteries were moved from inside to the tongue box to increase tongue weight since the 19 tends to have a fairly low tongue weight.

Changing from a pair of 6V Interstate batteries to a single lithium will drop the weight in the tongue box by around 90 pounds. I'd definitely move things around to make up for the drop.
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:47 AM   #26
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Or add a small cinder block to the tongue.
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:31 AM   #27
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Far from expert in this however two things come to mind here. First, you have 7 year old lead acid batteries that still work. I understand wanting to be proactive yet it seems for your kind of camping that is way different to Jon's why fix what ain't broke? For $200 you could get two new Interstates from Costco.

More importantly- the dual 6V Interstates are 225 amp hours. What is the single 12V lithium? You need a reservoir to store the energy created by your solar panel. I learned the hard way when ordering a single Group 29 12V on my build sheet on the advice of another here. Didn't work for me.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:02 AM   #28
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Far from expert in this however two things come to mind here. First, you have 7 year old lead acid batteries that still work. I understand wanting to be proactive yet it seems for your kind of camping that is way different to Jon's why fix what ain't broke? For $200 you could get two new Interstates from Costco.

More importantly- the dual 6V Interstates are 225 amp hours. What is the single 12V lithium? You need a reservoir to store the energy created by your solar panel. I learned the hard way when ordering a single Group 29 12V on my build sheet on the advice of another here. Didn't work for me.

I agree I cannot justify the cost to change from my trusty 6v Interstates. Mine are late 2014 and still working pretty well. I will probably replace with the same this winter as they are starting to get old but 6 years for $250 is pretty good and I could afford to replace them again for the price of one of those lithium batteries(let alone new chargers and controllers). I understand that John from Oswego probably needs them(along with others that spend serious amounts of time boondocking...yes I am a bit jealous but not time to retire yet!) but for most of us weekenders and occasional longer vacations the lead acid is just fine. Weigh your options and look at the costs and decide what is best for your type of camping....that is what is great about this forum.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:52 AM   #29
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Just another toy? Guess it's just what a sheltering geezer with too much time on his hands and a hole in the pocket does to keep distracted. Once it gets here might produce a video on the thing.

Confinement, a sensation lately and keenly familiar to just about everyone on this continent and across the globe, certainly has put a strain on my life. There are books of course but reading in bed tires me. The weak find relief with Nexflix, (did I spell that right?) or, by shopping online. Anyone need new equipment? I can always find an excuse for using a camera, editing a video idea, or driving around. The trailer can always provide some distraction for me.

If pressed, I can make that distraction an expensive one. Enter Lithium?
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:10 PM   #30
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Ian, do your batteries set off the propane alarm? mine seem to. That's my only reason to consider swapping from flooded.
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:29 PM   #31
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Propane Monitor

I'm not Ian, but I initially had lots of propane alarms -- all hours, middle of the night, etc. (We purchased our 2015 21C slightly used in August 2016 and it still has the original Interstate dual 6V batteries.) I had pretty much convinced myself that the alarm was resulting from offgassing associated with periodic equalization charge, and it became routine to hit the reset button on the alarm, and vent the trailer. That usually worked, but worried that I might eventually have a real propane issue and not respond to it appropriately.

In the meantime, the propane alarm failed. So I replaced it, with an exact replacement. In the several months since replacement I have not had a single false alarm. So maybe try a propane monitor replacement before going for a more expensive change in batteries. The replacement unit is inexpensive and took about 15 minutes to install.

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Old 09-21-2020, 03:33 PM   #32
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I replaced it last week, silence since but I haven't done an equalization either.
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:46 PM   #33
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Thanks, much appreciated. I have made my decision. It will be the Battleburros - I mean the Battleborn. All things considered, advice gratefully received, warrantee, etc., this seems right for me, despite the hole I just burned in my card.
The Lithium battery has many many advantages... you can discharge it 90% down and it still puts out

you can fully discharge it and not damage it.

It will accept a charge faster, i believe.

lighter, smaller.

enjoy!
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:57 PM   #34
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...
It will accept a charge faster, i believe.
...
That may depend on the brand of Lithium battery. Mine, (Dakota brand) for example, specifies 0.1C (for a 100AH capacity = 10A charge rate) at 50F or above, and at 14.4 volts. Those requirements are rather more restrictive than the average AGM lead-acid battery.

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Old 09-22-2020, 02:16 PM   #35
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The Lithium battery has many many advantages... you can discharge it 90% down and it still puts out

you can fully discharge it and not damage it.
Yes and no. Electric vehicle manufacturers have clearly acknowledged that pushing lithium-ion batteries to near their capacity limits adversely affects life, so they program their charging and battery management systems to limit the range used, on both ends (charging and discharging). When your electric car says it went from "100% charged" to "0% charged", it may be have only been charged to 80% of the possible capacity, and discharged only to 20% of that capacity. Completely discharging any lithium cell is fatal to it, so all of them come with a battery management system which monitors individual cell voltages (not just the battery overall) and cuts of discharge when any cell gets too low. The more critical management requirements mean that lithium RV battery suppliers build a management system (BMS) right into the units because users can't be trusted to not ruin them. The end result is that while lithium is capable of wider cycling than lead-acid, it only appears to be more robust because it has been "idiot-proofed".

Lead-acid batteries can be discharged repeatedly to 90% discharged (10% remaining) as well... the better battery manufacturers publish charts showing the expected life (in cycles) as a function of depth of discharge. With no battery management system, you're on your own if you push it. Some solar charge controllers have a set of load terminals and cut off anything connected to them if the battery voltage gets too low, which is a bit like a lithium battery's BMS.

Regardless of the battery technology, for most people a travel trailer is not a very demanding application for a deep-cycle battery, because it takes ten years of occasional vacations with a cycle every camping day to match the number of cycles that an electric car gets in a year (a couple hundred cycles in each case).
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Old 09-22-2020, 06:01 PM   #36
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This is a response to Bob(Padlin). Mine died a horrible screeching death in the middle of the night until I cut it's wires....I should get around to replacing it! I know I should be more motivated to replace it but our last camper did not even have one! Not a good excuse I know. I understand the battery thing but I keep going back to a properly sealed and vented to the outside battery box should not cause a problem with a propane inside the camper....
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Old 09-22-2020, 08:02 PM   #37
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This is a response to Bob(Padlin). Mine died a horrible screeching death in the middle of the night until I cut it's wires....I should get around to replacing it! I know I should be more motivated to replace it but our last camper did not even have one! Not a good excuse I know. I understand the battery thing but I keep going back to a properly sealed and vented to the outside battery box should not cause a problem with a propane inside the camper....
The problem is getting a good seal on the battery box that is hydrogen (the skinny molecule known) proof is almost impossible if you want a removable lid & wires exiting the box. If the vent was in the top of the lid and ran uphill to the outside that would be an improvement, but the vent out the side at 2/3rds the hight of the box doesn't work for the lightest gas known.

Can it be none - probably, but not the way Escape vents & seals the box.

While dealing with hydrogen generation during equalization wasn't the only reason I switched to lithium batteries, it was a good part of it. Using the same propane detector, I have not had a false alert since the switch. Prior to the switch I had an alert once or twice a week, even with a new replacement detector.
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Old 09-23-2020, 11:01 AM   #38
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Lightbulb Yes, LFP batteries *like* to be stored at less than 100%. But ...

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.... The issue that worries me is that the LiFePo4 chemistry needs about 14.4 to do a full recharge. Our standard GoPro solar controller does not provide that, but your Morningstar just might. On the other hand, charging less than 100% should not be detrimental to the lifespan of the battery - unlike a lead-acid
Yep. In order to have the longest lifespan, LiFePO4 ("LFP") batteries should not be stored at 100% SOC all the time.


But, they do need need to be charged all the way up - and charged at High Voltage just a few times per year, so that the internal Battery Management System ("BMS") can balance among the four (sometimes 8) individual cells which make up the 12.8 Volt Battery system. With insufficient Voltage, BMS can't do that job as easily as you want it too.
- - - -
But there is an easy and inexpensive way to solve this "issue", without replacing your Power Converter board or Solar Controller: While plugged in to a 30A shore outlet, use a dedicated LFP charger "brick" to support final cell balancing. Hook it up to the battery terminals with no DC loads in progress, and then and plug the power cord of the brick into a 120v outlet. The LFP "Bricks" which have been sent to me (from China, along with my batteries) charge at fairly low amperage, but they both charge at about 14.6 volts.


That Voltage is completely adequate for a quick "top off" to allow the BMS to balance the cells. (But it's a little bit more than I like to use for "regular" charging of LFP batteries, which IMO is best done at 14.4 - 14.5V).
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Old 09-23-2020, 11:29 AM   #39
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You should probably never "fully discharge" an LFP battery.

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The Lithium battery has many many advantages... you can discharge it 90% down and it still puts out
you can fully discharge it and not damage it. It will accept a charge faster, i believe. lighter, smaller.
enjoy!
Now of course, the built-in BMS of most battery packs will prevent you from doing that.

But in my opinion, most BMS systems for LFP battery packs allow Voltage to fall too low (under load) before terminating the output current connection. Values of 10.5 Volts (and even less) are very widely used, but the cells within the battery pack may already be suffering some damage by discharging at Voltage levels that low. Even with the most modern cell technologies, it is pretty widely agreed that you can get 20-30% more charge cycles from an LFP battery pack - if you don't drag it down past 20% SOC.

I try not to push my own LFP batteries below about 15% minimum SOC, at a minimum resting test Voltage of about 12.6. When the resting or lightly loaded monitor Voltage begins to fall from 12.8V, even a little bit, I try to eliminate whatever loads I can.
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Old 09-23-2020, 01:08 PM   #40
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Now of course, the built-in BMS of most battery packs will prevent you from doing that.
...
As a general rule-of-thumb you should not rely on the BMS to correct for bad charging/discharging behavior. It is more of a "last resort" protection device to prevent meltdown and flames.

While looking around for charge/discharge curves I ran across this:
https://www.solacity.com/how-to-keep...tteries-happy/ - titled "How to Find Happiness With LiFePO4 (Lithium-Ion) Batteries". Good reading for someone considering Lithium batteries for their Escape.

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