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Old 09-23-2020, 01:28 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanmalk View Post
.... While looking around for charge/discharge curves I ran across this:
https://www.solacity.com/how-to-keep...tteries-happy/ - titled "How to Find Happiness With LiFePO4 (Lithium-Ion) Batteries". Good reading for someone considering Lithium batteries for their Escape.
Thank You very much for that link

Among other things, that article helps the life-cycle cost perspective for an investment in quality LiFePO4 - along with providing the reasons behind the relatively simple 'rules' to realize that ROI.

Much appreciated
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:52 PM   #42
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DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse on YouTube Is a must watch for those interested lithium batteries. Love when he cuts them open and exposes the flaws in them! Spoil alert- Battleborn are the best direct replacement lithium batteries.
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:21 PM   #43
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Just another toy? Guess it's just what a sheltering geezer with too much time on his hands and a hole in the pocket does to keep distracted. Once it gets here might produce a video on the thing.
If pressed, I can make that distraction an expensive one. Enter Lithium?
Looks like Myron, you already purchased. FYI, for anyone purchasing Battleborn, if you join Escapees one of the member benefits is discount on Battleborn 100ah for $849.
I am putting the two Battleborns under the driver side bench on our 19 and then adding a truck box on the tongue where the batteries used to be. Stuff in the box should more than make up the weight difference. They probably shouldn't be on the tongue without a heat mat in enclosed box.
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:01 PM   #44
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Too late for me to get that Escapees discount. My Brattleboro was delivered yesterday. Cleaned out the tongue box. Brought in the original 6v battery boxes but the100AH Brattleboro is an inch and a half longer. Spent the day custom building a new box for it.

Before I disconnected the old boys did one last check and they were down to 11.2 volts so the initial conclusion holds. They are history.

The lithium in the new box weighs 44 pounds, 32 for the battery, 12 for the box. I did not connect my Morningstar SunsaverDuo solar converter to the BattleBurger because the manual says, "...only charge lead acid batteries." Bummer. Will be buying a new, up-to-date Morningstar.
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:43 PM   #45
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My Brattleboro was delivered yesterday.
Color me green with envy.

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Old 09-26-2020, 11:57 AM   #46
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Currently waiting for advice from Northern Arizona Wind & Sun on which MorningStar controller I should get. Must be careful...And they ain't cheap.
Most important tool used during the install was that magnet on a wand. Bolts to the battery connections were a real pain.
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Old 09-26-2020, 02:28 PM   #47
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Currently waiting for advice from Northern Arizona Wind & Sun on which MorningStar controller I should get. Must be careful...And they ain't cheap.
Most important tool used during the install was that magnet on a wand. Bolts to the battery connections were a real pain.
Craftsman screwdriver , magnetic bowls for parts and new battery what’s not to like ! Pat
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Old 09-26-2020, 04:39 PM   #48
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for a lead acid battery, the 14.4V mode is the 'absorption' phase, not the bulk charge.
starting with a 50% discharged battery...
  1. bulk charge is maximum amperage until it reaches around 13.6-13.8V, then hold the 13.6-13.8V until the current drops to below about 1 amp. this leaves a lead acid battery about 80% charged.
  2. absorption phase is several hours at 14.4V while the current drops to near zero, this puts the last 20% in.
  3. float or maintenance mode is 13.2-13.6V, this keeps the battery charged while powering your DC appliances.

A "12V" Lithium battery will charge fastest if you just hit them with 14.4V limited to the maximum safe charge amperage. once the current drops to near zero, they are fully charged, its safe to keep a float charge at 13.6V or so to provide power to the 'house' DC loads...
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Old 09-30-2020, 10:20 AM   #49
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I just watched the Escape Industries website and sent Melissa a big question ...on the need to replace my old WFCO with one for my new Battleborn Lithium. In their video they are installing (as an option) the Orion Smart DC charger along with their choice of one Lithium, which they say does the same job as the 2 lead acid 6 volt batteries.
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Old 09-30-2020, 11:57 AM   #50
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My 2 original old school 6v batteries are now in year 7 and it's time for them to go. Not concerned with the good/bad aspects of battery choices but, I am however considering a replacement lithium battery. Not looking to spend a thousand bucks, nor changing out my factory WFCO, or my Morningstar solar controller. I do carry 200 watts of portable solar. We don't need something to keep us electrified for any long term boondocking.

Thoughts: Will one of these 12 volt lithiums be a good option? $517.49 on Amazon seems like a very good deal.
  • Renogy 12V 200AH Rechargeable Deep Cycle Hybrid Gel Battery for Solar Wind RV Marine Camping UPS Wheelchair Trolling Motor, Maintenance Free, Non Spillable
  • Size:200Ah Hybrid Gel
Hybrid Gel - That doesn't sound like a lithium battery to me.

It's not a lithium battery, it's a lead acid GEL battery

Renogy’s 12V Deep Cycle Hybrid GEL Battery

Manufactured with gel suspended electrolyte and advanced valve regulated technology, Renogy Deep Cycle Hybrid GEL Batteries save you from acid leakage and frequent maintenance

BTW - They are $449 with free shipping direct from Renogy
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Old 09-30-2020, 09:33 PM   #51
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So what's the deal here? Sure don't look anything like a replacement for my WFCO. No response yet from Melissa, or anyone at Escape. Is this supposed to be an add-on to the WFCO for solar charging and if so, what if you need the lithium charged when not using your solar? If true that the old WFCO don't charge lithium, -- what then?
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Old 09-30-2020, 10:10 PM   #52
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So what's the deal here? Sure don't look anything like a replacement for my WFCO. No response yet from Melissa, or anyone at Escape. Is this supposed to be an add-on to the WFCO for solar charging and if so, what if you need the lithium charged when not using your solar?
That's not a AC-to-DC converter; it is not a replacement for the converter section of the WFCO Power Center. It's also not for the solar system.

That is a DC to DC converter. It is inserted in the charge line from the tow vehicle to the trailer's battery. It converts whatever voltage is available from the tow vehicle to the voltage needed by the trailer's battery, making up for inadequate voltage due to wiring resistance or a less than optimally regulated tow vehicle charging system.

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If true that the old WFCO don't charge lithium, -- what then?
In the video, they also mention using a lithium-specific version of the WFCO converter (probably the WF-8950L2PEC instead of the stock WF-8955, but it could also be the WF-8955LiS which can switch between lead-acid and lithium modes), so that it will put out a voltage which is more appropriate for the battery.

To modify your existing Escape with its WF-8955, you can replace the converter section with WFCO's WF-8950L2-MBA, or with converter sections from other manufacturers.


So, to get a lithium-ion battery fully charged, at least one of the three charging sources must produce a suitably high voltage and yet not apply an excessive long-term float voltage. The three sources:
  • solar - the stock solar charge controller might be suitable
  • shore power - the power centre's converter section should be adjustable to set to levels suitable to lithium
  • tow vehicle - the tug will never fully charge a lithium battery by itself, but the Victron DC-DC can fix that
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Old 09-30-2020, 10:33 PM   #53
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So what's the deal here? Sure don't look anything like a replacement for my WFCO. No response yet from Melissa, or anyone at Escape. Is this supposed to be an add-on to the WFCO for solar charging and if so, what if you need the lithium charged when not using your solar? If true that the old WFCO don't charge lithium, -- what then?
Looking at the specifications for that gadget - it appears to be a "buck" regulator, meaning it reduces a high voltage to a lower one, while holding the wattage roughly constant. This is the same goal as an MPPT solar charger - but they don't appear to be marketing this as a solar charger. ("High" voltage in this case is 12-17 volts dc, so perhaps it can not be used with the typical solar panel which can reach 21 volts in full sun with no load. I really don't know.)

The good-ole WFCO that most of us have normally puts out 13.8 vdc. That is bare minimum for charging lithium iron phosphate batteries. 14.0 is much better if you want a full battery in a reasonable time.

It appears we lithium owners really need both a new solar controller and a 110v-12v converter. Plus a way to protect the trailer electronics from 14.4 v that both of the above will likely provide.

Its a puzzle and is partly the reason (the other is $$$) why I haven't jumped to lithium for my trailer. (I am using a brand new 100 AH lithium for my electric boat motor - but I can charge it out of circuit in the garage with a dedicated lithium charger.)

Take a look at:
https://www.solacity.com/how-to-keep...tteries-happy/

Jump to the paragraph "Charge Voltage Needed" if you don't want to wade through the entire discussion. This is the source for my numbers. But it is a good read for any would-be lithium convert.

--
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Old 10-01-2020, 06:31 AM   #54
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I think Alan has it right here. This is my understanding as well.

On the sidelines, I remain!
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Old 10-01-2020, 09:30 AM   #55
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I think Alan has it right here.
...
To give credit where it is due: I am just repeating what Brian said above, but in a different manner.
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Old 10-01-2020, 11:38 AM   #56
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Its a puzzle and is partly the reason (the other is $$$) why I haven't jumped to lithium for my trailer. (I am using a brand new 100 AH lithium for my electric boat motor - but I can charge it out of circuit in the garage with a dedicated lithium charger.)

Take a look at:
https://www.solacity.com/how-to-keep...tteries-happy/

Jump to the paragraph "Charge Voltage Needed" if you don't want to wade through the entire discussion. This is the source for my numbers. But it is a good read for any would-be lithium convert.
Interesting read and everyone should read this before purchasing lithium.

The end of the article reads:

To sum up, for long and happy LFP battery life, in order of importance, you should be mindful of the following:
1. Keep the battery temperature under 45 Centigrade (under 30C if possible) – This is by far the most important!!

2. Keep charge and discharge currents under 0.5C (0.2C preferred)

3. Keep battery temperature above 0 Centigrade when discharging if possible – This, and everything below, is nowhere near as important as the first two

4. Do not cycle below 10% – 15% SOC unless you really need to

5. Do not float the battery at 100% SOC if possible

6. Do not charge to 100% SOC if you do not need it
Our problems:
Can camp for many days with highs less than 0 C (32 F). We leave for the day and turn off the furnace. We would be draining the battery by running the furnace, even though it's sunny out, since you can't charge lithium below freezing. We could waste LP and continue to fuzz our sail switch by running the furnace at 10 C (50 F) to keep the batteries in their storage underneath the dinette at 4 C (39 F). Yes, in that situation we're winterized, with only using the black tank with antifreeze.

Camper is in a seasonal site, in a valley bowl where the temps can constantly be over 30 C (86 F) for numerous continuous days. For a couple of weeks every summer the heat inside the camper can easily reach 40 to 45 C (104 - 113 F)

Read #'s 4 & 6. If I only charge to 90% and discharge to 10-15% then I only effectively have 75 useable ah's.
For our use we need to feel comfortable with a lithium decision, especially at that cost and it's still unproven lifespan. We're not. If we were to buy a second battery today (2020/10/01) it would be a Lead Crystal / Silicon Dioxide Battery (SiO2). We haven't though, so are open to change our minds.

Enjoy,

Perry
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Old 10-01-2020, 02:26 PM   #57
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You can charge to 100% for immediate use. 90% is better for storage.
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Old 10-01-2020, 02:44 PM   #58
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the lithium battery for my drone, if put away charged, in a week or so it wakes up and intentionally discharges itself to 60% then goes back to sleep. kind of annoying when you go to grab the drone to do something, you really have to plan ahead, and charge it the day of use.
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Old 10-01-2020, 02:45 PM   #59
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Looking at the specifications for that gadget - it appears to be a "buck" regulator, meaning it reduces a high voltage to a lower one, while holding the wattage roughly constant.
The specs visible on the cover of that device in the Amazon listing are nonsensical and cause confusion - it is from Victron Energy's Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Non-Isolated Charger range and the specific model is "12|12-30", which means
  • nominally 12 V input
  • nominally 12 V output
  • 30 amps maximum
... but the specs shown on that case are actually for the 24 V input model, 24/12-30. The photo is presumably of an early case made for marketing material, rather than an actual production unit.

The actual specs for the 12/12-30 model that Escape would use, from the datasheet, include:
  • input voltage range: 10-17 V
  • Nominal output voltage: 12.2 V
  • Output voltage adjust range:10-15 V


So yes, it matches a source and load at different voltages, without just throttling away power (although it is only rated at 87% efficient), but in most cases (including a typical tug-to-trailer scenario) it is boosting rather than reducing voltage. It is a buck/boost converter, so it can increase or decrease voltage as required. To allow the tug to charge a lithium battery effectively, the Orion DC-DC would be set for something like 14.4 V output, and it since the tug never provides voltage that high it would be boosting voltage all of the time. If you want, you could leave it set to 12.2 V and it would run everything in the trailer without running down the battery below that, but wouldn't get the battery charged up.

This is actually a three-stage (bulk, absorption, float) charger, and can operate in that mode even for lithium batteries, but can be set to a fixed output voltage.

There's an interesting note at the end of the datasheet which provides a hint into the boost circuit design, and indicates that if the output voltage is set to (for example) 14.4 V, that's 20% over the nominal output voltage (of 12.2 V) so it can only maintain that output if the input voltage is 20% over the normal minimum of 10 V... so you need at least 12 V from the tug to maintain 14.4 V to the lithium battery.
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Old 10-01-2020, 02:55 PM   #60
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If I only charge to 90% and discharge to 10-15% then I only effectively have 75 useable ah's.
True, and I think this is a reasonable planning assumption. Even electric cars don't actually use the full possible state-of-charge range of their lithium-ion batteries, to avoid wearing them out. Some of them use more and more of the SOC range as they age, keeping the available energy per charge cycle the same so it seems like the battery is not degrading, even though it is ever more rapidly going downhill, which is probably not an unreasonable approach.

I don't think that the whole "I can discharge it to zero" justification for lithium-ion batteries is valid. If you would plan for lead-acid battery useful capacity based on fully charging and discharging to 50% SOC, then a comparable approach for planning lithium-ion battery useful capacity would be based on charging to something like 90% and discharging to something like 15%. On this basis, the nominally 225 Ah dual GC2 lead-acid setup is good for 113 Ah, and a pair of Group 31 LiFePO4 batteries (taking up about the same space) rated at nominally 100 Ah each and 200 Ah total are good for 150 Ah total. The lithium setup is lighter and has significantly more capacity, but it's expensive, it has issues, and it doesn't have twice the capacity.
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