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Old 08-10-2017, 08:38 AM   #21
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The pieces of the whole lifestyle change puzzle are falling into place. Delivering the Navion to its new owners tomorrow and the tow dolly next week. We're loving our Toyota Highlander Hybrid (our 2nd) and have our kayaks on top.

By next week we'll be able to sit down and complete the LONG options list! We tried to choose flooring but without the countertop and fabric samples, it's hard to coordinate. Have to find a place that sells all three. It's all fun!
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Old 08-10-2017, 09:13 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BluebirdHazel View Post
We tried to choose flooring but without the countertop and fabric samples, it's hard to coordinate. Have to find a place that sells all three.
ETI will send you samples of the stock vinyl, laminate and fabric upon request...or at least they used to do that so I presume they still do.
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Old 08-10-2017, 09:22 AM   #23
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That would be great except that I have a certain look in mind: light greys to offset all the wood cabinetry. I'll add accents of blue. (I love decorating! ��) I don't think ETI has what I want unfortunately.

We had vinyl (leather-like material) in our Casita and in the Navion and loved it. It was so forgiving re: spills and was calmer than a busy material in such a small space.

All these choices are so exciting!
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:11 AM   #24
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I misunderstood Post #21 and thought you were missing samples of the ETI stock materials.
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:08 PM   #25
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We tow our 2017 19 with a 2012 Highlander equipped with the tow package to get the towing capacity to 5,000 pounds. As far as I know, the Hybrid has a max towing capacity of 3,500 pounds. Others can chip in here, but you might not be able to get into a 19 or 21 if you are set on the Hybrid as your tug.
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Originally Posted by BluebirdHazel View Post
We're loving our Toyota Highlander Hybrid (our 2nd) and have our kayaks on top.
Congratulations on the purchase of the trailer, but please enlighten us on how you are planning to tow a 21 with a Highlander Hybrid with a tow capacity of 3500lbs?
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:26 PM   #26
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Congratulations on the purchase of the trailer, but please enlighten us on how you are planning to tow a 21 with a Highlander Hybrid with a tow capacity of 3500lbs?
Good catch.
I just looked that vehicle up as well and the 3500 tow capacity is correct. Hope that's not what they're planning to be using as the tow vehicle. The payload capacity doesn't leave much room on that vehicle either once you add two people, two kayaks and tongue weight.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:07 AM   #27
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I suppose I should address this issue since folks are concerned about our tow vehicle. Firstly, I want to say that we insist on a hybrid vehicle since so much of our driving is done without towing; we had a Prius as our toad with our Navion and got unbelievable gas mileage. We only upsized to a Highlander Hybrid for the Escape. I'd love to just have a little electric car! (No doubt gas prices will be escalating after Harvey!)

So, here's what my hubby tells me (and I trust him.....we have built houses and a 19 ton steel boat and hauled many trailers.....he's never steered us wrong. )........

The Highlander Hybrid actually has 10hp more than the regular Highlander so power is not the issue. The electric motor with its superior torque curve allows the HH to out accelerate the lighter standard H. So torque is not a problem.

The H is rated at 5000lbs towing capacity. The payload difference between the H and the HH is only 148lbs. Therefore, if the standard H can tow 5000lbs, it stands to reason that the HH can approach that number at least within 150lbs.

No one rates their vehicles with a towing capacity of 4850lbs. It's either 1500, 3500, 5000 or more. Toyota has deemed to rate the HH at the 3500 mark. The numbers suggest that it is in reality well above that level.

We have experience with towing a Casita 17 (300lbs dryweight less than the Escape 21) with a Toyota Sienna and an HH. The drive train of the Sienna compares almost identically to the standard H and HH. Towing the Casita with the HH was a breeze compared to the Sienna because of the benefits of the electric motor and CV transmission.

The TWO of us only weigh 270lbs! LOL We are omitting the stovetop, oven, and range hood and we use only 1 propane tank. We never travel with full tanks and pack very minimally. We WILL weigh the Escape before we take a trip.

So, at this point, we don't share everyone's concerns.
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Old 08-30-2017, 02:10 PM   #28
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The Highlander Hybrid actually has 10hp more than the regular Highlander so power is not the issue. The electric motor with its superior torque curve allows the HH to out accelerate the lighter standard H. So torque is not a problem.
I agree - power and performance are not the problems. You could tow the trailer with a 600 horsepower exotic sports car, and it would not have a problem with power either... but would you seriously expect that to work?

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The drive train of the Sienna compares almost identically to the standard H and HH. Towing the Casita with the HH was a breeze compared to the Sienna because of the benefits of the electric motor and CV transmission.
The Sienna and non-hybrid Highlander do share the same engine and related transmissions. The Sienna has a much lower trailer rating, which should tell you that there is much more to towing capacity than the engine, or even the engine and transmission. The continuously variable behaviour of the hybrid system is beneficial for towing... if it survives.

The hybrid and non-hybrid transmissions are completely different. The capacity of one says nothing about the capacity of the other.
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Old 08-30-2017, 02:13 PM   #29
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So, here's what my hubby tells me (and I trust him.....we have built houses and a 19 ton steel boat and hauled many trailers.....he's never steered us wrong. )........
In that experience, has he greatly exceeded the towing capacity of the other vehicles?

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Originally Posted by BluebirdHazel View Post
The H is rated at 5000lbs towing capacity. The payload difference between the H and the HH is only 148lbs. Therefore, if the standard H can tow 5000lbs, it stands to reason that the HH can approach that number at least within 150lbs.
That would make sense if Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (which controls payload) were the only factor. For one thing, it completely ignores Gross Combined Weight Rating, which can be a couple of hundred pounds higher for the non-hybrid, depending on model variant. If you don't understand the difference between these ratings, it's time to learn some more before second-guessing the manufacturer of the vehicle. These terms are defined and explained in the owner's manual. But even that doesn't account for everything that goes into determining a trailer weight rating.

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Originally Posted by BluebirdHazel View Post
No one rates their vehicles with a towing capacity of 4850lbs. It's either 1500, 3500, 5000 or more. Toyota has deemed to rate the HH at the 3500 mark. The numbers suggest that it is in reality well above that level.
It is common to round the towing capacity of mutipurpose vehicles to one of the VESC/SAE trailer hitch class limits (which are 2000, 3500, 5000, and 10000), and Toyota particularly likes to do that; however, there are many vehicles - including nearly all pickup trucks - which have other limits. Toyota pickups have ratings which are not round numbers, and even the Highlander has had various trailer ratings including 3000 pounds in some earlier versions. The 2016 non-hybrid Highlander manual shows trailer ratings of 1500 pounds for the 4-cylinder and 2000 pounds for the V6 without towing package. If Toyota really thought that the appropriate rating was around 4850 lb, they could round it down to 4500 lb (a value long used by Honda for some of their vehicles), for instance.

"The numbers" - if you're assessing this yourself rather than accepting the manufacturer's assessment - need to include far more than horsepower and torque. What is your assessment of the capacity of the system which cools the hybrid system motor-generators and controllers, and how did the temperature of those components do in your extended high-load testing? I'm just guessing, but that's probably the limiting factor for the hybrid.

The vehicle curb weight, GVWR, and GCWR are very close for the non-hybrid and hybrid Highlanders. The fact that Toyota chose to rate the hybrid for a substantially lower trailer weight suggests that they are concerned with the sustained load on the hybrid transmission system while dragging parachute-like trailer at highway speeds.
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Old 08-30-2017, 02:18 PM   #30
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The TWO of us only weigh 270lbs! LOL We are omitting the stovetop, oven, and range hood and we use only 1 propane tank. We never travel with full tanks and pack very minimally. We WILL weigh the Escape before we take a trip.
This is the key - if you actually stay within the rated limits, or avoid sustained heavy load with a heavier trailer (such as climbing mountain grades at too high a speed), it can all work.

Many people are surprised by how heavy their trailers are. Perhaps more importantly, they are surprised by how much more the trailer weighs than the number on which they based their assessment that they were not overloaded. It is common to read the base and dry weight spec and ignore both options and cargo, and for those who do acknowledge cargo it is common to underestimate how much stuff will be carried. If you really are realistically looking at the weights, you are in a much better position.

Hazel, I hope you understand that the concerns arise because many people are confident about their towing capacity, only to later learn that they had not considered all the relevant information.
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Old 08-30-2017, 02:50 PM   #31
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Hazel: Let me preface that I commend you in wanting to maximize fuel economy, but we are talking about a trailer with a 5,000 lb GWVR so I also want you to be safe and have a comfortable towing experience in all conditions. Brian summed it all up very well in the last three posts. Only a few points worth adding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluebirdHazel View Post
No one rates their vehicles with a towing capacity of 4850lbs. It's either 1500, 3500, 5000 or more. Toyota has deemed to rate the HH at the 3500 mark. The numbers suggest that it is in reality well above that level.
True to some extent, but if you peruse the annual Trailer Life Towing Guide there are vehicles rated with all kinds capacities. I owned a Subaru Outback rated at 2700 lbs towing. Odd number for sure. I believe there was a warning in the owner's manual about high ambient temperatures, continuous grades and towing loads that could overheat the CVT. At some point we need to trust the engineers and the rating standards followed that help to develop appropriate towing capacities. There is always going to be a safety factor, but lets leave it that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluebirdHazel View Post
We have experience with towing a Casita 17 (300lbs dry weight less than the Escape 21) with a Toyota Sienna and an HH. The drive train of the Sienna compares almost identically to the standard H and HH. Towing the Casita with the HH was a breeze compared to the Sienna because of the benefits of the electric motor and CV transmission.
Based on numbers from their respective web pages I see a difference of over 700 lbs in the heaviest Casita 17 to the Escape 21. Also as Brian pointed out, it is not a fair statement to say that a Sienna minivan drive train compares almost identically to a Highlander Hybrid. They are quite distinct from each other. The Highlander Hybrid with the Synergy Drive system and the Sienna with a standard automatic transmission.
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:00 PM   #32
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I agree with Brian, a hybrid towing an Escape 21 seems like too much. The Specs of 3200# for the 21 is without any options and dry. It will be close to 3500# when you hook up. The 19 Escape has a little more margin maybe 400#, ideally you should get the 17 model. You will have hitch and brake issues and probably warranty if anything goes awry.
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:05 PM   #33
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I agree with Brian, a hybrid towing an Escape 21 seems like too much. The Specs of 3200# for the 21 is without any options and dry. It will be close to 3500# when you hook up. The 19 Escape has a little more margin maybe 400#, ideally you should get the 17 model. You will have hitch and brake issues and probably warranty if anything goes awry.
Our 19 shipped at 3270#
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:41 PM   #34
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There you go, a bit smaller margin, depending on options in the 19, thanx rjbny.
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Old 08-30-2017, 04:15 PM   #35
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Toyota

The weak link is the CVT transmission .My 21(2016) new design was 3600lb I figure about 400lb of my stuff (propane tanks,water,kitchen stuff , tools ,clothing etc etc Too. Towing weight about 4000lb +
WE love our 21 and you will too maybe the 19 would work better? Sorry for all the worried respondents but we want you and yours to be Safe .
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Old 08-30-2017, 05:35 PM   #36
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Probably the best call to make is to the insurance company to make sure they will cover it in an accident if pulling a trailer that is a good bit over the tow vehicles specs. Not something you want to find out after the fact.
Second call would be to the dealer, if the vehicle is still under warranty, to see if it voids drive train warranty.
If both calls yield positive results, then you at least know it's covered if something were to happen.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:02 PM   #37
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You will have hitch and brake issues and probably warranty if anything goes awry.
The hitch and brakes will be the same between the hybrid and non-hybrid Highlanders, and "engine braking" (which will be regenerative braking) should be great with the hybrid, so those are not the areas which would concern me (although I'm just taking an educated guess, like everyone else). The motor-generators and electronics of the hybrid system would be my concern.
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Old 08-31-2017, 07:47 AM   #38
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Directly from the ETI website FAQ's:

What tow vehicle is needed to pull an Escape?
On average, most Escape customers carry about 800lbs – 1,000lbs of cargo with them when they travel and add about 200lbs – 300lbs of options to their Escape Travel Trailer. Therefore, the
  • 17′ Escape, Plan A with a dry weight of 1,970lbs will travel fully loaded at approximately 2,970lbs.
  • 17′ Escape, Plan B (Bathroom) with a dry weight of 2,400lbs will travel fully loaded at approximately 3,400lbs.
  • 19′ Escape, with a dry weight of 2,950lbs will travel fully loaded at approximately 4,100lbs.
  • 21′ Escape, with a dry weight of 3,210lbs will travel fully loaded at approximately 4,510lbs.
  • Escape 5.0TA with a dry weight of 3,885lbs will travel fully loaded at approximately 5,185lbs.
Depending on the Escape Travel Trailer you are interested in towing, your tow vehicle should have a towing capacity of between 4,000lbs for the 17′ and up to 5,500lbs for the Escape 5.0TA Fifth Wheel. Please note these weights can vary depending on several variables therefore we encourage you to allow for a safety margin between the estimated towing weight of any Escape trailer and the towing capacity of your tow vehicle.
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:02 AM   #39
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I do so appreciate all the concern. We will do more research.
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Old 09-01-2017, 12:54 PM   #40
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January 4th for pick up for the 21' is winter! LOL

Us Texans don't know any better. We picked ours up January 16th!



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