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Old 11-18-2018, 06:46 PM   #21
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The issue with Escapes is dumping as both valves are outside the heated space and will freeze up, even if you use large amounts of pink stuff.
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Old 11-20-2018, 05:58 PM   #22
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We regularly camp for several weeks each winter in sub freezing conditions. Seldom use our heated tanks as the discharge valves are unprotected and will freeze, even with liberal use of pink stuff. That said, the trailer stays warm down to -10F, and we have found ways to use water for dishes without involving the winterized plumbing system. For the toilet, we have turned out toilet into a port-a-potty by taping the disposable bags to the inside of the toilet and adding the substance which turns liquid into a gel permitting one to dispose of used bag in any trash. While boondocking, we store used bags in a closed 5 gal bucket in the back of the truck until we get to a place to dump it. Sponge baths with wipettes suffice until we get to a shower at a campground, truckstop, or gym.

A 130 watt plug in inverter allows for charging electronics and running a white noise machine (snoring). Don't feel the need for anything larger.
If I may beat this dead horse one more time . . .

I wouldn't miss running water into the sink but I really would like a flushable toilet. We are hoping to use our trailer when we visit our daughter in Vermont in winter where we will have electricity. If I flush the toilet with water that is kept inside, and the black water tank is not frozen . . . can the valve to empty the black water be thawed for opening and emptying?

Is there a given temperature for a given period of time that is a guideline for not using the water? Been camping for 16 years in an unheated VW Eurovan Weekender. Have been imagining the luxury of interior heat and a usable toilet. After this I promise to accept my fate : )
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Old 11-20-2018, 06:13 PM   #23
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You can flush with antifreeze, while it doesn't freeze solid, it does turn to slush.

Read somewhere about someone needing to thaw out the valves/output piping when they froze up. Had to park it in a heated garage for 3 days to get it to work. This was NOT an Escape.

If it's not going to warm up well above freezing during the day, I go dry.
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Old 11-20-2018, 06:25 PM   #24
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Well here’s a question I’ve never seen asked and certainly do not know the answer to.
( English teachers: don’t hurt yourself when you smack your forehead!). How much water is used in a normal escape toilet flush? The reason I ask is that in the Fall, I can usually buy -50 degree RV antifrezze for about $2.65 per gallon. It wouldn’t be too expensive for a person to use RV antifreeze flush the toilet if used. You could probably even cut it with some melted snow. Just suck it though the winterizing T valve or pour it straight in. Shouldn’t freeze. Valve should open ok. For less than ten bucks or so you could camp dry in pretty cold weather.
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Old 11-20-2018, 06:33 PM   #25
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I used to use windshield antifreeze in my cassette toilet in my T@da in the winter. Cheaper than rv antifreeze and works below freezing.
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Old 11-20-2018, 06:58 PM   #26
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The issue with Escapes is dumping as both valves are outside the heated space and will freeze up, even if you use large amounts of pink stuff.

I believe that Once Upon A Time, a couple of customers talked ETI into wrapping the exposed plumbing with heat tape. I wouldn’t hold my breath that they’d do the same today, but an enterprising do-it-yourselfer could do something along these lines.
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:26 PM   #27
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I believe that Once Upon A Time, a couple of customers talked ETI into wrapping the exposed plumbing with heat tape. I wouldn’t hold my breath that they’d do the same today, but an enterprising do-it-yourselfer could do something along these lines.
I asked when we ordered our 21 in 2017. ETI said they would not do it.
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:30 PM   #28
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I used to use windshield antifreeze in my cassette toilet in my T@da in the winter. Cheaper than rv antifreeze and works below freezing.
I checked the local Dallas area Walmart. RV and windshield antifreeze are just about the same price per gallon. I have been using RV antifreeze in my black and gray tanks to reduce the likelihood of the dump valve freezing. If windshield antifreeze would do a better job of remaining liquid at sub-freezing temperatures, I'll start using it.
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:50 PM   #29
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Omi said:

“...where we will have electricity. “

If you have electrical power, just run an extension cord and position a heat lamp near the dump valves. Or a length of heat tape. Or a few regular light bulbs. As long as the pipe is kept above freezing, you will be able to dump your tanks.

If you visit often, Investigate the possility of adding a 4” T to the existing sewer line so you can dump your tanks right there. I did that a number of years ago at a house we lived in. Very convenient.
Enjoy your visit

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Old 11-21-2018, 04:57 PM   #30
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A couple of points:

Escape is a 3 season trailer and it's hard to envision making it too 4 season like. The heat pads only gain you a few degrees of leeway. Wrapping the discharge pipes with heating tape and foam is something that I looked into and eventually decided that it was mostly futile. The problem is that even if you wrap the discharge pipes and insulate them with foam, you can't insulate the final termination valves. Those valves being uninsulated will be subject to freezing and you only need a little bit of freezing to block the whole system. If someone was really really interested in doing this they might be able to protect this area by wrapping the discharge point with heating tape and then wrapping some kind of wind resistant insulative blanket around the discharge pipes, but beware of poo drizzle saturated blankets ... ick.

DON'T USE THE BLUE ETHYLENE GLYCOL ANYWHERE INSIDE AN RV. IT'S VERY TOXIC. I haven't seen specific information on using it in traps, but I would worry that in an enclosed space the vapors would be more concentrated and therefore harmful than outdoors. In terms of freeze protection, the blue ethylene glycol doesn't have a much lower freezing point or solidification point than propylene glycol. I can't remember if it was slightly lower or slightly higher, but whatever the case, it's about the same as propylene glycol. If you are noticing lower freezing points it's because the concentrations are different.

The pink propylene glycol is typically mixed with water to achieve a -50 freeze protection, but as mentioned earlier it still solidifies at higher temperatures. It just won't damage anything down to -50 at that concentration.

You can buy more concentrated versions of propylene glycol. -100F and "concentrated" almost pure propylene glycol can be purchased. If I wanted to use my toilet in extremely cold weather, I would buy some of the concentrated stuff and put it directly in my fresh water tank, or EZ Winterization intake hose for those who have it, and use that to flush the toilet. After being mixed with.. ahem.. other liquids, you should still be able to fend off solidification to very low temperatures. At 50% concentration it's already down to about -30F of true solidification protection.

I keep a jug of water inside and have a basin that I can fill with water. I would recommend putting some propylene glycol into the gray water tank to protect it from any accidental over pour in the sink, but in most places you can dump cleaning water outside if it hasn't been put into a gray tank (check local regulations).

One example of antifreeze concentrate:
https://www.amazon.com/Camco-RV-Anti...E17QJ8E91FBPPK

There are lots of -100F antifreeze. Here is one:
https://www.amazon.com/Camco-30787-W...ds=camco+30787

This page includes a graph of solidification points vs various concentrations:
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Old 11-21-2018, 05:36 PM   #31
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You can buy more concentrated versions of propylene glycol. -100F and "concentrated" almost pure propylene glycol can be purchased.
Yes, but anything more concentrated than 70% glycol is pointless, and a waste of both money and resources. The freezing point of ethylene glycol / water mixtures actually rises after that, and with propylene glycol it's just pointless because it doesn't help much and there's nowhere on earth with a road that needs a freezing point that low.

I wouldn't put ethylene glycol in anything other than a engine's cooling system that specifies it, due to the toxicity of the stuff.
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Old 11-21-2018, 06:03 PM   #32
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Yes, but anything more concentrated than 70% glycol is pointless, and a waste of both money and resources. The freezing point of ethylene glycol / water mixtures actually rises after that, and with propylene glycol it's just pointless because it doesn't help much and there's nowhere on earth with a road that needs a freezing point that low.
Yes, very true about high concentrations, but when mixed with waste products, especially urine, it should be about right, and you can always add water if you need less protection as needed. I agree though that -100F mixture is probably fine for most uses, and the -100F stuff is a bit cheaper gram for gram of propylene glycol I think.

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I wouldn't put ethylene glycol in anything other than a engine's cooling system that specifies it, due to the toxicity of the stuff.
I wouldn't use it either, even in the traps. In an enclosed space it could reach higher vapor concentrations than in outdoor applications. I edited my earlier response to make this more clear since it's a safety issue.
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Old 11-21-2018, 07:23 PM   #33
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I checked the local Dallas area Walmart. RV and windshield antifreeze are just about the same price per gallon. I have been using RV antifreeze in my black and gray tanks to reduce the likelihood of the dump valve freezing. If windshield antifreeze would do a better job of remaining liquid at sub-freezing temperatures, I'll start using it.

You might want to make sure that windshield fluid won’t harm any plumbing valve seals. I have no idea how to check this though.
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Old 11-21-2018, 07:28 PM   #34
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You can flush with antifreeze, while it doesn't freeze solid, it does turn to slush.

Read somewhere about someone needing to thaw out the valves/output piping when they froze up. Had to park it in a heated garage for 3 days to get it to work. This was NOT an Escape.

If it's not going to warm up well above freezing during the day, I go dry.
We had to do this exact thing with our Escape.
After researching and experimenting with several options for using our water systems in below freezing weather, my opinion is the only option would be to skirt the trailer and add a heat source below the trailer when temps drop below 20 degrees F.
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Old 01-02-2019, 12:42 PM   #35
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Cold weather

I picked up our 21 last Monday. On the way back to Atlanta we spent 2 nights at the Las Cruces KOA (great place BTW).

The first morning it was 28 f. and the only thing that froze was the city water hose and faucet. I knew the next morning was going to be in the low 20s so we were going to leave. But the guy next to me said that with my heating pads and spray foam all I had to do was leave an indoor faucet dripping, dump black and gray tanks, and leave the gray dump valve open. I checked several times during the early morning and everything worked like he said it would. The low that morning was 21 f!

I did put some bubble insulation into the outside faucet housing, and some over the outside access doors. I also taped one of those styrofoam outdoor faucet covers over the fresh water drain too. (It's still there after 1700 miles!)
The furnace did run a lot. And I kept the door under the sink and seat over water pump open.
Now I know that you need to have a source of water and AC all night, so using this boondocking would be hard. But it looks like the 21 setup correctly can handle cooler weather.

I'm going to add shutoff valves and more insulation and some of those oak floor registers at the bed and dinette walls to keep those areas ventilated. Maybe a heated water hose. I've already got a good Raychem heat tape if I ever want to wrap the dump valves.

I'm just throwing this out there so if someone is in a situation that they can't leave or winterize when cold weather is headed in they can try this.

BTW this was a 3700 hard mile return trip with absolutely problems. And pix are coming, just need a little rest first.
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Old 01-02-2019, 05:39 PM   #36
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I picked up our 21 last Monday. On the way back to Atlanta we spent 2 nights at the Las Cruces KOA (great place BTW).
:
I'm going to add shutoff valves and more insulation and some of those oak floor registers at the bed and dinette walls to keep those areas ventilated. Maybe a heated water hose. I've already got a good Raychem heat tape if I ever want to wrap the dump valves.
:
BTW this was a 3700 hard mile return trip with absolutely problems. And pix are coming, just need a little rest first.
Please post the details of the heat tape purchase and installation when you do it. I am very interested in putting heat tape on my dump valves as well.
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Old 01-02-2019, 06:01 PM   #37
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Rick,
Here's what I bought. The raychem wire is better because you can wrap it over itself without it overheating or melting. It also has a built in thermostat.
As far as installation I just plan on a temporary job if needed. I've got an outside 120ac plug on the outside rear and I'll run a extension cord to the valves and wrap the heat wire around the valves.
https://www.ebay.com/p/Raychem-W51-6...6P/18012035405
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Old 01-02-2019, 06:17 PM   #38
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Rick,
Here's what I bought. The raychem wire is better because you can wrap it over itself without it overheating or melting. It also has a built in thermostat.
As far as installation I just plan on a temporary job if needed. I've got an outside 120ac plug on the outside rear and I'll run a extension cord to the valves and wrap the heat wire around the valves.
https://www.ebay.com/p/Raychem-W51-6...6P/18012035405
Raychem makes excellent self regulating heat tape .
I installed about 6000 ft of it for the Canadian Pacific Railroad down in the tunnels in their transfer yards . Six years later and after the tunnel was subjected to Spring floods we experienced zero failures
I have about 100 ft of Raychem stainless steel encased self regulating heat tape.
Someday I’ll find a use for it
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:13 AM   #39
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Please post the details of the heat tape purchase and installation when you do it. I am very interested in putting heat tape on my dump valves as well.
This modification is of interest to me also.
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:55 AM   #40
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About how many amps per hour do the tank heaters draw?

Wondering about operating them strictly off the batteries while boondocking.

Thanks

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