5.0 roof fiberglass thickness? Screw suggestion?

[Hawkeye Ed]

Does anyone know offhand how thick the roof fiberglass is on a 2020 Escape 5.0?

I'm planning to install a couple of solar panels on the roof between the emergency hatch and the MaxFan, fastening the panel feet to the top with 3M VHB double-sided tape covered with Dicor self-leveling sealant.

Sometimes being a belt-and-suspenders king of guy, I thought I might as well also add a screw to each foot to help hold it to the roof. I'm not worried about water intrusion because the Dicor sealant will cover everything.

Any suggestions about the best way to install the screws?

Thanks

Ed

[Ron in BC]

From various cut outs that I have, and without my calipers handy, I'd say almost 3/16"

I'm a belt and braces guy also. Previously I through bolted with a rubber washer and a fender washer on the interior. About as bomb proof as you can get.

Ron

[homebrewer]

I recently drilled a 3” hole in the roof of my E19 - part of the installation of a Dickinson heater. I saved the core from the drilled hole - here’s a picture of the core. The things I noticed are - the fiberglass is thicker than the side wall and is composed of more than just the outer fiberglass - see the white popcorn like layer between two layers of fiberglass. Then notice that there’s the plywood “framing” glued or epoxied to the fiberglass shell. The plywood is what the cabinets and walls are fastened to. The other layers are the soft foam wall covering.
That being said, I would avoid drilling into the roof. The VHB tape has been shown to be very strong. There’s risk of drilling into a wire, and there’s also the potential for leaks. But a 3” hole in the roof? No problem!

[Ron in BC]

Originally Posted by homebrewer

the fiberglass is thicker than the side wall and is composed of more than just the outer fiberglass - see the white popcorn like layer between two layers of fiberglass.

That's a cored layup. Sometimes plywood is used instead. The advantage of foam over plywood is two fold. One it's lighter but most importantly if there's a slight leak into the core the foam won't rot.

But a 3” hole in the roof? No problem!

Try building a boat. Drilling holes in the hull below the waterline is required.

Ron

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye Ed

Does anyone know offhand how thick the roof fiberglass is on a 2020 Escape 5.0?

I'm planning to install a couple of solar panels on the roof between the emergency hatch and the MaxFan, fastening the panel feet to the top with 3M VHB double-sided tape covered with Dicor self-leveling sealant.

Sometimes being a belt-and-suspenders king of guy, I thought I might as well also add a screw to each foot to help hold it to the roof. I'm not worried about water intrusion because the Dicor sealant will cover everything.

Any suggestions about the best way to install the screws?

You might want to read my Adding 300 Watts Solar To Our 5.0. I massively over 3M taped our panels down and they'll never come off, even without a screw. They can come off using a thin guitar string or dental floss as a saw though.

I used a single screw with my solar install on our Bigfoot's roof, but if I had it to do over again I'd use a well nut or a rivnut.

Food for thought,

Perry

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Perry Butler

... I massively over 3M taped our panels down and they'll never come off, even without a screw. ....

I sincerely hope your judgment proves correct over the long-haul (nope, I've no basis for suggesting otherwise for your specific case which certainly appears robust).

I like VHB tape, think it's great stuff and certainly tenacious; yeah, I know it's used in many very-long design-life 'engineered' structural transportation applications.

That notwithstanding I lack the personal confidence in my own judgment of the many dynamic forces involved and the very long term tenacity for a DIY 'VHB tape only' PV array installation. Planning on having my trailer for a very long time, I'm more comfortable with the 'belt-and-suspenders' of through-bolted mounts with backing plates. For me the burden of ensuring watertightness is much less intimidating than the thought of failed adhesives.

I've enough experience with fiberglass that I don't personally consider wellnuts or rivnuts an appropriate 'insert' for the material in this situation (PV array mounts), but again that's just my personal opinion. Same for screws driven directly into fiberglass or even wood backing.

Options are good, we all need to go with what gives us our own good comfort level, I sincerely wish the best for everyone and their choices!

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Centex

I sincerely hope your judgment proves correct over the long-haul (nope, I've no basis for suggesting otherwise for your specific case which certainly appears robust).

I like VHB tape, think it's great stuff and certainly tenacious; yeah, I know it's used in many very-long design-life 'engineered' structural transportation applications.

That notwithstanding I lack the personal confidence in my own judgment of the many dynamic forces involved and the very long term tenacity for a DIY 'VHB tape only' PV array installation. Planning on having my trailer for a very long time, I'm more comfortable with the 'belt-and-suspenders' of through-bolted mounts with backing plates. For me the burden of ensuring watertightness is much less intimidating than the thought of failed adhesives.

I've enough experience with fiberglass that I don't personally consider wellnuts or rivnuts an appropriate 'insert' for the material in this situation (PV array mounts), but again that's just my personal opinion. Same for screws driven directly into fiberglass or even wood backing.

Options are good, we all need to go with what gives us our own good comfort level, I sincerely wish the best for everyone and their choices!

The only panel on the 5.0 I was worried about was the front panel. It's on north/south, but is only a 100 watt panel so has only 43" exposed east/west/ vs 59" used by Escape and other manufacturers using medium size panels. I also massively sized and over-taped the mounting bracket.

Our current panels are mounted north/south with only the front panel exposed to the oncoming air. For the next year or so, at every campsite, I'll still get up on the roof to tug the brackets, and inspect the Dicor.

We all have risks that we're willing to accept. I'm OK with mine, as you are with yours.

Enjoy,

Perry

[GregWCIL]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye Ed

Does anyone know offhand how thick the roof fiberglass is on a 2020 Escape 5.0?

I'm planning to install a couple of solar panels on the roof between the emergency hatch and the MaxFan, fastening the panel feet to the top with 3M VHB double-sided tape covered with Dicor self-leveling sealant.

Sometimes being a belt-and-suspenders king of guy, I thought I might as well also add a screw to each foot to help hold it to the roof. I'm not worried about water intrusion because the Dicor sealant will cover everything.

Any suggestions about the best way to install the screws?

Thanks

Ed

Ed, I agree with the redundancy belt/suspenders approach. Especially after I called 3M and they said they do not recommend any of their vhb tapes for fastening things to a vehicle exterior. That may just be “lawyer talk” but why chance it.
Homebrewer’s cutout pic is very helpful in viewing what you have to deal with. In your location the strongest areas are where the side cabinets fasten to the roof. You can drill from inside the cabinet thru the plywood and have hidden fasteners.
We drilled about 20 - 1/4 in. Holes in those hidden spots to mount an aluminum frame for 1200 watts of solar panels. As Centex and others mentioned I’m not worried about making those waterproof.
Hardest part was figuring out exactly where to drill. There is not one single square corner to measure from in that whole darn trailer. Lol
Good luck

[jjdeluca]

Originally Posted by GregWCIL

Ed, I agree with the redundancy belt/suspenders approach. Especially after I called 3M and they said they do not recommend any of their vhb tapes for fastening things to a vehicle exterior. That may just be “lawyer talk” but why chance it.
Homebrewer’s cutout pic is very helpful in viewing what you have to deal with. In your location the strongest areas are where the side cabinets fasten to the roof. You can drill from inside the cabinet thru the plywood and have hidden fasteners.
We drilled about 20 - 1/4 in. Holes in those hidden spots to mount an aluminum frame for 1200 watts of solar panels. As Centex and others mentioned I’m not worried about making those waterproof.
Hardest part was figuring out exactly where to drill. There is not one single square corner to measure from in that whole darn trailer. Lol
Good luck

Wow Greg - 1200 watts of solar panels on a 5.0 - did you use slide-out panels? I'd love to see pictures of your set up/installation as we plan to order a 5.0 in the near future and I'm already planning my own solar installation. Thanks

[GregWCIL]

I guess I should start a thread on it. But after many months of installing lithium, solar and mini-split I was just relieved to go camping. We will be at the Upper Mississippi Rally in two weeks.
No slide outs. Our build sheet deleted the top AC, top power vent and fridge vent to clear the roof for three 40 x 72 in panels.
Went on a five week camping trip to the Southwest in May/June. Never plugged into shore power once.

[HABBERDABBER]

You all are brave and hardy folks. Just like in the "old days".

bon voyage

[GregWCIL]

Originally Posted by HABBERDABBER

You all are brave and hardy folks. Just like in the "old days".

bon voyage

I didn’t make it clear. No factory AC but installed a mini-split. Used both heat and cooling on the trip. Great results, 100% off grid.
I have some fond memories of the good old days but not tough enough to relive them.

No more hijacking this thread. My apologies to the OP.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by GregWCIL

Ed, I agree with the redundancy belt/suspenders approach. Especially after I called 3M and they said they do not recommend any of their vhb tapes for fastening things to a vehicle exterior. That may just be “lawyer talk” but why chance it.

When I called 3M and told them I was mounting solar panels to our roof. He said as long as I understood the square inches needed and to do proper prep work VHB tape is very successful. He guided me to a chart showing the sheer (?) strength and suggestions for prepping.

He also warned that if VHB is used outside you MUST prevent water infiltration to the tapes center core that can cause the two glue sides to separate. I asked about Dicor and he agreed Dicor is often used to keep the tape from the elements, but gave me other options.

That was two years ago, and no, I didn't save either the chart or the instructions. So I guess it depends on who you talk to on the phone.

Food for thought,

Perry

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Perry Butler

When I called 3M and told them I was mounting solar panels to our roof. He said as long as I understood the square inches needed and to do proper prep work VHB tape is very successful. He guided me to a chart showing the sheer (?) strength and suggestions for prepping. ...

.... I didn't save either the chart or the instructions .....

For the benefit of folks who feel qualified to calculate (or even estimate) the various complex forces their solar array will impose on VHB tape mounts, and derive appropriate taping schemes to accommodate those forces, attached is a 3M Technical Data sheet providing a wealth of useful information including Application Techniques and, among other physical properties, the Dynamic Adhesion Performance for

• 90* Peel Adhesion (lifting force acting on one end of the tape);
• Normal Tensile (uniformly distributed lifting forces acting perpendicular to the surface of the tape);
• Dynamic Overlap Shear (opposing forces acting parallel to the surface of the tape); as well as
• Static Shear

The document, perhaps similar to the one Perry mentioned but could not provide, is fascinating reading in its entirety.

In my own case, study of the document convinced me that I am not qualified to confidently derive a scheme for mounting my panels solely reliant on VHB tape, thus my belt-and-suspenders approach. YMMV.

Have Fun, Good Luck.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Centex

For the benefit of folks who feel qualified to calculate (or even estimate) the various complex forces their solar array will impose on VHB tape mounts, and derive appropriate taping schemes to accommodate those forces, attached is a 3M Technical Data sheet providing a wealth of useful information including Application Techniques and, among other physical properties, the Dynamic Adhesion Performance for

• 90* Peel Adhesion (lifting force acting on one end of the tape);
• Normal Tensile (uniformly distributed lifting forces acting perpendicular to the surface of the tape);
• Dynamic Overlap Shear (opposing forces acting parallel to the surface of the tape); as well as
• Static Shear

The document, perhaps similar to the one Perry mentioned but could not provide, is fascinating reading in its entirety.

In my own case, study of the document convinced me that I am not qualified to confidently derive a scheme for mounting my panels solely reliant on VHB tape, thus my belt-and-suspenders approach. YMMV.

Have Fun, Good Luck.

That sure looks like the document I downloaded 2-3 years ago. I remember having to uncross my eyes a couple of times when trying to understand, but I love the challenge of math and science. After talking to AM Solar and how to properly prep the roof I was confident the tape would hold, but I also could see that if you do a poor prepping job the tape would let go, plus, if you don't protect the tape from rain the tape will definitely fail. I trust good science, and used AM Solar's recommendations, since they've been successfully installing panels with 3M VHB tape for years.

Enjoy,

Perry