Trailer: 2020 Esacpe 19'(Hillbilly Heaven) ETI best named trailer of the year
Posts: 1,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327
True but I was referring to any add'l wiring as related to the electric operation of the SW6DE model. The OP has the SW6D (gas-only) so I hope his 12V igniter is connected. If everything is working properly the coiled wire under the fridge is certainly nothing to worry about.
yes my 12 volt igniter on water heater works fine. the location of this drop makes me think it either something to do fridge or hot water heater. When I am back in there I am going to trace this wire out. 20 degrees now so I removed all the plywood and am finishing that in the basement where its warm.
Never really liked those toasters. We don’t often eat toast, but when camping, if we do, we pan fry it. Certainly not healthy, but fun once in awhile if on the road.
__________________
Randy & Barb
1998 C 2500 (Cruncher) and 2021 Ranger (Yoda)
Trailer: 2020 Esacpe 19'(Hillbilly Heaven) ETI best named trailer of the year
Posts: 1,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lewis
Speaking of inverters: My 2014 Escape 21 was equipped with an inverter, which at the time was the Samlex 1500W model. It was not mounted directly to the trailer floor, but instead was mounted to a small square of plywood which was screwed to the floor. Any idea why Escape did this?
Mike Not sure why they did that. on your samlex what model is it and is it hooked up to a transfer switch? I been looking at the samlex SSW-1500-12A. I found a great deal on one. I think escape installed this model at one time. After reading the Manual It states that this unit can not be installed to a transfer switch. I guess because it has the neutral and ground bonded at the inverter. I just wondering how escape handled this problem. https://samlexamerica.com/documents/...-0117-Lrez.pdf
Mike Not sure why they did that. on your samlex what model is it and is it hooked up to a transfer switch? I been looking at the samlex SSW-1500-12A. I found a great deal on one. I think escape installed this model at one time. After reading the Manual It states that this unit can not be installed to a transfer switch. I guess because it has the neutral and ground bonded at the inverter. I just wondering how escape handled this problem. https://samlexamerica.com/documents/...-0117-Lrez.pdf
Yes, I believe from previous discussions in this forum that is the model that Escape used when they were using Samlex equipment, but I don't think that's what the manual says; in fact, in section 1.3 it suggests a specific transfer switch to use (because they sell it):
Quote:
The AC output of the unit should never be connected directly to an Electrical Breaker Panel / Load Center which is also fed from the utility power / generator. Such a direct connection may result in parallel operation of the different power sources and AC power from the utility / generator will be fed back into the unit which will instantly damage the output section of the unit and may also pose a fire and safety hazard. If an Electrical Breaker Panel / Load Center is fed from this unit and this panel is also required to be fed from additional alternate AC sources, the AC power from all the AC sources (like the utility / generator / this inverter) should first be fed to an Automatic / Manual Selector Switch and the output of the Selector Switch should be connected to the Electrical Breaker Panel / Load Center. Samlex America, Inc. Automatic Transfer Switch Model No. STS-30 is recommended for this application.
That manual also contains these notes and warnings:
In section 1.3:
Quote:
In SSW-1000-12A, SSW-1500-12A and SSW-2000-12A, the Neutral terminals of the Dual NEMA5-20R GFCI AC outlets are bonded to their Ground terminals and also to the metal chassis of the inverter. Hence, the Neutral terminals of the outlets will be at 0V with respect to their Ground terminals and with respect to the metal chassis of the inverter.
In section 1.4:
Quote:
The metal chassis and the input Negative terminal of the inverter are internally connected to the Ground terminals of the AC outlets.
and
Quote:
... grounding the Neutral terminal of the GFCI outlet in SSW-1000, 1500 & 2000 will trip the GFCI. Hence, do not connect the AC output to a Load Center / Distribution Panel where the Neutral is bonded to the Earth Ground.
All that makes sense. Ground and neutral are bonded together at some point - and just one point - in typical AC systems, and in this case that is at the source of the AC power, which is the inverter.
Perhaps this is the statement which is causing concern:
Quote:
Do not connect the power inverter to household or RV AC distribution wiring. Do not connect the power inverter to any AC load circuit in which the Neutral conductor is connected to Ground (Earth) or to the Negative of the DC (battery) source.
While I can understand not wanting consumers to plug a trailer's shore power cord into the inverter, or to connect the inverter directly to any AC system which could be live from another source, an installation with a proper transfer switch is a different situation - I don't see a concern with it, and that first section that I quoted confirms that. This appears to be about just plugging the trailer into the inverter and not about installing the unit with a transfer switch, but perhaps I'm missing something.
If the inverter is one of two inputs to a typical transfer switch, with the other input being a branch circuit from the power centre's distribution panel, then there is no connection of the neutral conductor to the protective ground (and subsequently the frame and the battery negative) in the trailer that would be connected to the inverter (because the transfer switch switches both line and neutral conductors). This is how Escape's "all outlets" inverter installations have been and continue to be done, with both Go Power and Samlex equipment.
Trailer: 2020 Esacpe 19'(Hillbilly Heaven) ETI best named trailer of the year
Posts: 1,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
Yes, I believe from previous discussions in this forum that is the model that Escape used when they were using Samlex equipment, but I don't think that's what the manual says; in fact, in section 1.3 it suggests a specific transfer switch to use (because they sell it):
That manual also contains these notes and warnings:
In section 1.3:
In section 1.4:
and
All that makes sense. Ground and neutral are bonded together at some point - and just one point - in typical AC systems, and in this case that is at the source of the AC power, which is the inverter.
Perhaps this is the statement which is causing concern:
While I can understand not wanting consumers to plug a trailer's shore power cord into the inverter, or to connect the inverter directly to any AC system which could be live from another source, an installation with a proper transfer switch is a different situation - I don't see a concern with it, and that first section that I quoted confirms that. This appears to be about just plugging the trailer into the inverter and not about installing the unit with a transfer switch, but perhaps I'm missing something.
If the inverter is one of two inputs to a typical transfer switch, with the other input being a branch circuit from the power centre's distribution panel, then there is no connection of the neutral conductor to the protective ground (and subsequently the frame and the battery negative) in the trailer that would be connected to the inverter (because the transfer switch switches both line and neutral conductors). This is how Escape's "all outlets" inverter installations have been and continue to be done, with both Go Power and Samlex equipment.
Brain
Thanks for taking the time to explain this more clearly. I was confused about the statement " Do not connect the power inverter to household or RV AC distribution wiring. Do not connect the power inverter to any AC load circuit in which the Neutral conductor is connected to Ground (Earth) or to the Negative of the DC (battery) source."
I emailed the retailer and they told me I could just hook it up to a non GFI power strip . I tried to do some research On it and found this Video
so after watching the video I thought you could not do the transfer switch.
Based on this new information I Just ordered it.
would there be any issues with the GFI on the trailer being feed from the GFI on the inverter.?
I am thinking I wiring this in one of two ways
1. The transfer switch method with a sub panel.
2. removing one of my receptacles circuits from the ac panel and wiring it direct to the inverter. The end result would be two of my receptacles would only work from inverter and would not work on shore power. This would eliminate the transfer switch altogether. The 19 is small enough that two receptacles would be plenty for my needs. Very seldom do I have shore power when I did I would still have 1/2 ac outlet working.
would there be any issues with the GFI on the trailer being feed from the GFI on the inverter.?
I don't see any reason to expect an issue. A ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) doesn't affect the circuit at all unless it detects an imbalance between current in the line and neutral conductors, which indicates that some current must be going through a ground connection instead of the neutral where it should be; in that case it shuts off to protect the person that might be the connection. Having two GFCIs on the same circuit is like having two overcurrent protection devices (circuit breakers or fuses) on the same circuit, which is done all the time. If you plug your stock trailer into a GFCI outlet (or circuit protected by any other GFCI), you have the same situation - that works fine, although it can be confusing when one of them trips and you check the other one and see it isn't tripped.
Hopefully one of the qualified electrical professionals in the forum will check this and correct any errors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY
I am thinking I wiring this in one of two ways
1. The transfer switch method with a sub panel.
2. removing one of my receptacles circuits from the ac panel and wiring it direct to the inverter. The end result would be two of my receptacles would only work from inverter and would not work on shore power. This would eliminate the transfer switch altogether. The 19 is small enough that two receptacles would be plenty for my needs. Very seldom do I have shore power when I did I would still have 1/2 ac outlet working.
Method 1 is Escape's optional "all outlets" installation with transfer switch.
Method 2 is Escape's basic inverter installation without transfer switch.
Both are safe and effective, but the basic one-outlet installation is inconvenient because to make anything work from the inverter you need to unplug it from a regular outlet and plug it into the inverter outlet. For some people the primary use of the inverter is to run the microwave, but it is mounted in a cabinet with an outlet inside - how would you unplug the microwave from that hidden outlet to plug the cord into the other outlet? All I can suggest is that if you do this
put the inverter-supplied outlet close to a regular outlet, so you can move cords between them, and
Trailer: 2020 Esacpe 19'(Hillbilly Heaven) ETI best named trailer of the year
Posts: 1,204
As I am waiting for the inverter to arrive I was tracing out my AC circuits today. I notice the fridge still had power even when breaker was off. HMMM. Looking into deeper the label of the circuits was wrong. The fridge circuit and converter circuits have both wires attached to one breaker(labeled converter). There is other circuits tied together but those are done before the breaker with wire nuts. I can solve this by simply adding another 15 amp breaker.Is there any reason that I am unaware of that these both need to be on the same circuit?
On transfer switches. Both the go power and wfco t30 are about the same price. The WFCO has the advantages to attaching right the the back of the power center. Is one a better choice? Or will they both do about the same thing.
As I am waiting for the inverter to arrive I was tracing out my AC circuits today. I notice the fridge still had power even when breaker was off. HMMM. Looking into deeper the label of the circuits was wrong. The fridge circuit and converter circuits have both wires attached to one breaker(labeled converter). There is other circuits tied together but those are done before the breaker with wire nuts. I can solve this by simply adding another 15 amp breaker.Is there any reason that I am unaware of that these both need to be on the same circuit?
On transfer switches. Both the go power and wfco t30 are about the same price. The WFCO has the advantages to attaching right the the back of the power center. Is one a better choice? Or will they both do about the same thing.
It's common to find the converter on a pigtail with the fridge. There should not be two individual wires landed on a single breaker lug. I had the pigtail but didn't like it and had a spare breaker since I had added a tandem 15A when I did my mini-split so I moved the converter to it's own. Lower left of photo. I don't believe that anything else should be twinned before landing on a breaker. What are you seeing wire nutted together? I see seven neutrals in your photo and only 5 breakers.
No input on brand but regarding the transfer switch location just make sure you have the space due to how ETI ran your wiring. I can say that it would be very difficult for me to mount a T-30 on the back without some wiring modifications.
The fridge circuit and converter circuits have both wires attached to one breaker(labeled converter).
Looking closer at your photo it looks like it is probably a pigtail on the first 15A breaker. The wires should be fused together where they land under the breaker.
Thinking about this more I believe both of our outlet circuits are twinned together with a wire nut before a single lead lands on a 15A breaker. I will look into this further. If that is the case I will split them apart and put them each on their own 15A breaker.
I notice the fridge still had power even when breaker was off. HMMM. Looking into deeper the label of the circuits was wrong. The fridge circuit and converter circuits have both wires attached to one breaker(labeled converter).
The label could be wrong, but in previous discussions we have found that other people have just mis-read the breaker labels, which can be a bit confusing because there are two widths of breaker available for the panel and so when narrow breakers are used the label spaces are not always clear.
Can you post a photo of the panel with the cover on, showing the labels?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY
The fridge circuit and converter circuits have both wires attached to one breaker(labeled converter).
That's not good if they're both directly attached to the breaker, as Dave explained.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY
Is there any reason that I am unaware of that these both need to be on the same circuit?
No, they're just conserving breakers and spaces. If you have the panel space and don't mind buying more breakers, you can split every cable coming into the panel on to its own breaker. Escape's wiring design allows for the possibility that breaker positions will be needed for the circuit to the transfer switch, and an air conditioner, and an electric element in the water heater.
Trailer: 2020 Esacpe 19'(Hillbilly Heaven) ETI best named trailer of the year
Posts: 1,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubicon327
Looking closer at your photo it looks like it is probably a pigtail on the first 15A breaker. The wires should be fused together where they land under the breaker.
Thinking about this more I believe both of our outlet circuits are twinned together with a wire nut before a single lead lands on a 15A breaker. I will look into this further. If that is the case I will split them apart and put them each on their own 15A breaker.
I will have to check and see if those wires are fused together under the breaker stud . yes one of my outlet circuits is twinned with wire nuts . I olny have 5 out lets total. no microwave cabinet as I have the large fridge.
Trailer: 2020 Esacpe 19'(Hillbilly Heaven) ETI best named trailer of the year
Posts: 1,204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
The label could be wrong, but in previous discussions we have found that other people have just mis-read the breaker labels, which can be a bit confusing because there are two widths of breaker available for the panel and so when narrow breakers are used the label spaces are not always clear.
Can you post a photo of the panel with the cover on, showing the labels?
That's not good if they're both directly attached to the breaker, as Dave explained.
No, they're just conserving breakers and spaces. If you have the panel space and don't mind buying more breakers, you can split every cable coming into the panel on to its own breaker. Escape's wiring design allows for the possibility that breaker positions will be needed for the circuit to the transfer switch, and an air conditioner, and an electric element in the water heater.
Your right on the labeling Its a little confusing . Now taking a closer look I understand the labeling system. But looks like they still have the converter labeled with the main instead of with fridge. of course this is no big deal. As Dave stated I checked On the fridge and converter the two wires are fussed together as they inter the breaker lug. so it looks like everything is in order to the factor wiring. The forum is a great resource for this kind of stuff.
Your right on the labeling Its a little confusing . Now taking a closer look I understand the labeling system. But looks like they still have the converter labeled with the main instead of with fridge.
Yes, they certainly have "converter" written in the wrong place on that label - that certainly makes life unnecessarily more difficult.
Trailer: 2020 Esacpe 19'(Hillbilly Heaven) ETI best named trailer of the year
Posts: 1,204
A few more questions .
1. On wire size .. I am assuming 10-2 romex from the 30 amp breaker in converter to the transfer switch and from the transfer switch to the sub panel. how about from the inverter plug to the transfer switch ? maybe a 12 ga cord with a plug on the end?
2. tdf-texas Do you have a any photos of the inside of your sub panel when you wired it? I assume I need to add a grounding bar.
1. On wire size .. I am assuming 10-2 romex from the 30 amp breaker in converter to the transfer switch and from the transfer switch to the sub panel. how about from the inverter plug to the transfer switch ? maybe a 12 ga cord with a plug on the end?
2. tdf-texas Do you have a any photos of the inside of your sub panel when you wired it? I assume I need to add a grounding bar.
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