Being “gaslighted” by our 12-volt lights

[abby]

This spring, when getting ready to leave on a trip, we discovered that some of our LED lights were inoperable. Specifically, every LED light on the curb side was inoperable, as was the most forward-placed center LED light. The Max fan was also not operable. The three LED lights in the center from the door to the far rear were operable. The fuses were checked and all were OK. The light in the bath was OK, as were the captain lights at the four corners of the trailer. The batteries were OK. We left on our trip.

Once we arrived and were squared away, we contacted an electrician who works on RVs. He spent two hours trying this and that, but to no avail. We had a good week and came home.

Here’s where it gets strange. After a couple of weeks, the ceiling LED light in the center aisle, opposite the sink, was significantly dimmer. All of the other lights were fine. I installed and tested a new propane gas detector.
Today, another two weeks or so on, both that center aisle LED and the propane gas detector are dead. The remaining center aisle LED lights, as well as the captain lights, are still operable. The battery voltage was 13.6 today at Noon EDT.

Any thoughts? TIA.

Glenn

[Vermilye]

Originally Posted by abby

This spring, when getting ready to leave on a trip, we discovered that some of our LED lights were inoperable. Specifically, every LED light on the curb side was inoperable, as was the most forward-placed center LED light. The Max fan was also not operable. The three LED lights in the center from the door to the far rear were operable. The fuses were checked and all were OK. The light in the bath was OK, as were the captain lights at the four corners of the trailer. The batteries were OK. We left on our trip.

Once we arrived and were squared away, we contacted an electrician who works on RVs. He spent two hours trying this and that, but to no avail. We had a good week and came home.

Here’s where it gets strange. After a couple of weeks, the ceiling LED light in the center aisle, opposite the sink, was significantly dimmer. All of the other lights were fine. I installed and tested a new propane gas detector.
Today, another two weeks or so on, both that center aisle LED and the propane gas detector are dead. The remaining center aisle LED lights, as well as the captain lights, are still operable. The battery voltage was 13.6 today at Noon EDT.

Any thoughts? TIA.

Glenn

You might check the ground (common) connections. In 2017 Escape used a long bolt on the back of the WFCO converter to tie the grounds, with one of them going to the ground connection in the converter. A loose nut could cause the intermittent loss. Also check the individual connections at the converter fuses.

[abby]

Thanks Jon. I'll give it a look.

[CharlesinGA]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

You might check the ground (common) connections. In 2017 Escape used a long bolt on the back of the WFCO converter to tie the grounds, with one of them going to the ground connection in the converter. A loose nut could cause the intermittent loss. Also check the individual connections at the converter fuses.

So Escape does not use a ground bar for the 12v DC? Thats plain weird. Most of the new power centers including WFCO have a ground bar on the outside rear of them. In the past the manufacturers did what my Bigfoot had.

Two pics, one of the original (horrid) setup, and one after I installed ferrules on each wire. Same bar, originally lay on its side on a Z bracket, I remounted it vertical on an L bracket.

Charles

[elongest]

I had a similar issue with a 2014 E-21, lighting ckt. I lucked out, first thing I did was to find the fuse for the circuit. When I touched the fuse, the lights flickered. The contacts where the fuse plugs into had spread on one side. I tightened up the fuse socket with some pilers and everything worked fine.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by elongest

I had a similar issue with a 2014 E-21, lighting ckt. I lucked out, first thing I did was to find the fuse for the circuit. When I touched the fuse, the lights flickered. The contacts where the fuse plugs into had spread on one side. I tightened up the fuse socket with some pilers and everything worked fine.

A first step in trouble shooting a bad fuse contact, a bad ground, corrosion or many similar issues it to remove the "bad" light, propane detector, or something with the issue. Pick one that is easy to get in and out. Then measure the voltage on the supply wires with your multi-meter. It should match your battery voltage. If more than a bit lower then start searching for the previously mentioned suspect connection.

[abby]

Thanks much. I'll try that.

[abby]

I meant: Thanks to elongest.

[abby]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

A first step in trouble shooting a bad fuse contact, a bad ground, corrosion or many similar issues it to remove the "bad" light, propane detector, or something with the issue. Pick one that is easy to get in and out. Then measure the voltage on the supply wires with your multi-meter. It should match your battery voltage. If more than a bit lower then start searching for the previously mentioned suspect connection.

Thanks Alan. I'll keep that in mind. The locus of the problem seems to be clear: it's the circuit that contains the internal, starboard LED lights and then turns around and then moves aft in the center from the bed (picking up the Max fan as it goes) before fizzing-out (not a technical term), leaving the last three center-internal LED lights fully operative. Curious.

[MrLynn]

Originally Posted by Vermilye

You might check the ground (common) connections. In 2017 Escape used a long bolt on the back of the WFCO converter to tie the grounds, with one of them going to the ground connection in the converter. A loose nut could cause the intermittent loss. Also check the individual connections at the converter fuses.

Use a test light or multimeter. Jon's hypothesis sounds likely to me; bad grounds somewhere. But seems odd the "electrician who works on RVs" couldn't find it.

[DGLP]

Originally Posted by CharlesinGA

So Escape does not use a ground bar for the 12v DC? Thats plain weird. Most of the new power centers including WFCO have a ground bar on the outside rear of them. In the past the manufacturers did what my Bigfoot had.

Two pics, one of the original (horrid) setup, and one after I installed ferrules on each wire. Same bar, originally lay on its side on a Z bracket, I remounted it vertical on an L bracket.

Charles

I added a busbar for the ground wires on our 21 NE. They were bunched up on the small stud on the back of the converter (see photos). I had to cut one wire and connector to be able to get a tiny 11/32" wrench (with a thin wall) on the nut. I didn't have room for a socket or wrench with a thicker wall. I then added my own busbar.

I plan on modifying the ground at the frame (see photo). The current ground wires are attached to ring connectors with very poor crimps. And the screw attaching the connectors to the frame looks similar to the zinc-plated screws that were used to attach the propane rack to the frame. I replaced those self-cutting screws after I noticed a lot of rust on the rack tray when taking one tank off to refill it. Upon removing the screws, I found that they were corroded. While I was at it, i cleaned, sanded and repainted the rusted portions of the rack and the rusted portions of the frame under the rack. It was a bit surprising to see so much rust on a new trailer, especially one with a propane tank cover.

[DGLP]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

A first step in trouble shooting a bad fuse contact, a bad ground, corrosion or many similar issues it to remove the "bad" light, propane detector, or something with the issue. Pick one that is easy to get in and out. Then measure the voltage on the supply wires with your multi-meter. It should match your battery voltage. If more than a bit lower then start searching for the previously mentioned suspect connection.

I have an optional 12-volt outlet on the passenger side on our new 21 NE that never worked from the get-go. I got under the bed and tested the supply wires - voltage was fine. The outlet is defective. I found some other issues. The choice of cable clamps that were used was not appropriate. A number of small cables that didn't fit inside the clamps were crushed when the clamps were tightened down against those wires. Photos attached. I found a selection of stainless steel pipe clamps in various sizes with rubber cushions that hold the cables snug without crushing anything. I've used those to replace the plastic clamps.

Thanks again to a number of members of this forum for their expertise. I've been learning!

[MrLynn]

Originally Posted by DGLP

I have an optional 12-volt outlet on the passenger side on our new 21 NE that never worked from the get-go. I got under the bed and tested the supply wires - voltage was fine. The outlet is defective. I found some other issues. The choice of cable clamps that were used was not appropriate. A number of small cables that didn't fit inside the clamps were crushed when the clamps were tightened down against those wires. Photos attached. I found a selection of stainless steel pipe clamps in various sizes with rubber cushions that hold the cables snug without crushing anything. I've used those to replace the plastic clamps.

Thanks again to a number of members of this forum for their expertise. I've been learning!

You should send those photos to Escape, and recommend they switch to those neat clamps you found.

[Ron in BC]

That sort of thing has been going on for a long time and certainly pre-current ownership. Anyone used to high quality wiring on yachts and aircraft etc. does find it a bit jarring.

The strangest thing that I ever found was the ground system on my old 19. The battery negative left the battery and went down to the frame. Then, about 2' away the ground from the converter came down and was screwed to the frame. Two screwed to the frame high probability of corrosion attachments within 2' of each other. The simple thing to do would have been to use the correct length cables so that they were lug-to-lug on the same screw.

I ended up running a bonding wire from each brake ground, also screws into the frame, and picking all grounds and running them to a common ground stud.

As far as a buss bar goes the present system works OK for those who don't do many mods or install electrical items. But for those that do mods, yes, installing a negative buss bar is the way to go. Install new stuff without disturbing the old.

Ron

[John in Santa Cruz]

all those lights that aren't working along with the maxxfan are on the same fuse on mine. I do believe I'd take a volt meter and check the output terminal of the fuse board before I went any farther.


re ground bus bar, on my 2014 21, all the DC grounds were stacked ring terminals on a screw stud on the back of the WFCO.

[alanmalk]

Timing can be a funny thing...


I had one of the "pancake" led lights over the sink/stove area stop working last night. Unscrewed it and applied "selective wiggling" on the wires until it started blinking. Seems one of the switch connectors was loose. Just another application of Murphy's Law.