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02-09-2022, 09:45 AM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lanesboro, MN, between Whalan and Fountain, Minnesota
Trailer: 2016 Bigfoot 25RQ - (2018 Escape 5.0 sold)
Posts: 2,155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex
I think the answer to that is "No". Please review post #7 with diagrams and later.
By design the Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Charger Isolated prevents any current on the output side (the 'WFCO side' in this application) from passing to the input side (the 'battery side' in this application). This design characteristic (the DC2DC unit acting as a '1-way gate') is to prevent depletion of a battery on the 'output side' when the battery on the 'input side' is at a lower state of charge in its 'typical' application.[/U] (a constraint Perry is willing to accept in his particular case).
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Sorry I didn't state this earlier. As Centex explained, the Orion can be use either as a DC-DC charger OR as a regulated power supply, but can't be used for both.
A second Orion would be needed if we decide to install lithium batteries. However, our two 6v, 260ah SiO2 batteries are working precisely as Azmuth Solar claimed. That's one of the reasons we haven't needed the WFCO charger for the past year. The other reason is last June/July I i nstalled an additional 300 watts to the roof. The only thing is, will the batteries last as long as claimed. Only time will tell.
Currently, since the WFCO converter/charger is disconnected by pulling the two reverse polarity fuses, our 12 appliances get their DC power from the batteries when connected to shore power. In the past 140 nights since disconnecting those fuses, not even counting the summer use in our seasonal camp site, this is not a problem.
The Orion should arrive here at Gilbert Ray near Tucson on Thursday or Friday and will be installed some time in the next month.
Enjoy,
Perry
__________________
Those who know everything use pens. Intelligent people use pencils.
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02-09-2022, 10:21 AM
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#22
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: USA, Nunavut
Trailer: Escape
Posts: 274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryb67
Sorry I didn't explain this earlier. The Orion can be use either as a DC-DC charger OR as a regulated power supply, but can't be used for both.
A second Orion would be needed if we decide to install lithium batteries. However, our two 6v, 260ah SiO2 batteries are working precisely as Azmuth Solar claimed. That's one of the reasons we haven't needed the WFCO charger for the past year. The other reason is last June/July I i nstalled an additional 300 watts to the roof. The only thing is will they last as long as claimed. Only time will tell.
Enjoy,
Perry
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Exactly, We don't know yet what our 4-100ah BB batteries will deliver or what our exact usage level will be. In theory perhaps the roof panels & good portables will keep up, but expecting gen use for when they don't, which makes the WFCO charger our backup. Plan is to get out of FL summers, chase cooler weather, & make AC less of a factor, as well.
In our case, looks like the little regulators or the "better" boards, or both, are the way forward for now. Worse case is an applicance down when we want to use it.
It would be sweet if the WFCO wasn't needed. Perhaps we can get there sometime in the future.
Thanks for all the great info from everyone on this thread!
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02-09-2022, 11:23 AM
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#23
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Santa Rosa County, Florida
Trailer: 2014 Escape 21 Tow: 2024 Toyota Tundra
Posts: 3,097
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I just checked my trailer voltage under midday sun on my panels and sure enough, it was 14.4 volts. I guess I need to buy replacement control boards for the fan, water heater and furnace, to have handy as spares even if I don't replace them beforehand.
What does the term "buck/boost voltage regulator" mean?
__________________
Mike Lewis
She don't lie, she don't lie, she don't lie-- propane
Photos and travelogues here: mikelewisimages.com
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02-09-2022, 11:26 AM
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#24
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: East of Austin, Texas
Trailer: 2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 SuperCab
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack!
... which makes the WFCO charger our backup ...
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Just for grins, here's a scheme built on one of your previous diagrams from another post which would give you the whole enchilada - WFCO acts as normal for charging / converting and 120VAC distribution
- 'Whole trailer' DC distribution regulated via an Orion DC2DC in Power Supply Mode
The added Progressive Dynamics PD6000 DC Distribution Panel is a lovely item, available from Randy at Best Converter for ~$60. There's a good chance you could fit it in your bench immediately adjacent to the WFCO and just transfer the DC distribution wires from one to the other.
Note that all of the points previously made by Tom/tdf-texas about (lack of) necessity of a 'whole trailer regulator', overall value, and failure points would still apply - only you can judge that for your situation.
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02-09-2022, 11:31 AM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: East of Austin, Texas
Trailer: 2021 Escape 5.0 / 2022 F150 SuperCab
Posts: 2,866
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lewis
... What does the term "buck/boost voltage regulator" mean?
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It's a regulator which, within specified ranges - Limits output voltage to a certain level when the input is higher, and
- Increases output voltage to a certain level when the input is lower
In contrast to a regulator which can only limit output voltage when the input voltage is higher than desired (as most old-school automotive voltage regulators)
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02-09-2022, 02:07 PM
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: New Mexico, New Mexico
Trailer: 2017 E19
Posts: 610
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Couple of thoughts on this interesting subject.
I called the tech line for Suburban water heaters, the tech line for MaxxFan, and Dinosaur boards. I also reviewed the literature on-line for the water heater, furnace, and MaxxAir fan.
In summary, the water heater and furnace manuals state max voltage per TDF's earlier comment. The tech at Suburban had no understanding if the water heater control board had higher voltage protection.
MaxxAir tech was knowledgeable and helpful. He stated the design voltage range for the "A" series of fans ("A" in the serial number) is 10.8V-13.6V. If the voltage is exceeded 13.6V, the "recent" boards (tech was not clear what was recent - last few years?) are supposed to have high voltage protection. At 13.6V+, the fan current cuts out for 20-30 minutes and the resets afterword. Interestingly, the "B" series of fans (as designated by a B in the serial number which was released last November) are designed to 15.0V to accommodate Li systems. Interestingly, the tech stated repeatedly that the problem was with solar controllers, not Li based systems. Clearly the AC-DC converter outputs ~14.5V, similarly to the solar controller. But the tech did not state shore power was the problem. Odd.
Per TDF's earlier comment, the Dinosaur rep stated that all boards are good for 15.0V.
Speculation - is there an understanding if the type/brand of solar controller (or the lack of solar) correlates with MaxxFan failures?
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02-09-2022, 04:31 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Houston, Texas
Trailer: 2022 5.0TA
Posts: 111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centex
By design the Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Charger Isolated prevents any current on the output side (the 'WFCO side' in this application) from passing to the input side (the 'battery side' in this application). This design characteristic (the DC2DC unit acting as a '1-way gate') is to prevent depletion of a battery on the 'output side' when the battery on the 'input side' is at a lower state of charge in its 'typical' application.
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I am planning on getting a DC-DC charger soon as well, and I'm curious about the mention of isolated power supplies.
Other than preventing ground loops, I'm struggling to see why a Victron isolated dc-dc converter would be an advantage over a non-isolated version? In this context the input is less than 15 volts, so it's relatively safe.
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02-09-2022, 05:47 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Trailer: 2012 E19
Posts: 1,733
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Some of you know much more about electronics than I. My questions:
It's my understanding that 14.2V is fairly standard output of many solar controllers. Does this, then, pose a danger to the control boards (as discussed in this thread)?
Is ETI wiring the solar output in such a way that it goes directly to the batteries, or does it go through the WFCO first; and if the latter, does the WFCO do anything to reduce the voltage?
Is there any advantage to adding a buck/boost regulator to a device's circuit, versus just a buck regulator? Is low voltage a danger to the control boards also?
__________________
Losing weight puts one at much greater risk of becoming thin.
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02-09-2022, 06:28 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lanesboro, MN, between Whalan and Fountain, Minnesota
Trailer: 2016 Bigfoot 25RQ - (2018 Escape 5.0 sold)
Posts: 2,155
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We were hiking today with our friends with an AM Solar purchased system for his Airstream, but installed by the Minnesota Airstream dealer. His 300 watt system is seven years old as are his Lifeline AGM batteries. Lifeline suggested he manually desulfate after every 30 days of camping at 15.5 volts. How many here are desulfating their batteries at over 15 volts?
Food for thought,
Perry
__________________
Those who know everything use pens. Intelligent people use pencils.
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02-09-2022, 06:30 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Baytown, Texas
Trailer: 2017 21' Escape - upgraded version
Posts: 2,697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike G
Some of you know much more about electronics than I. My questions:
It's my understanding that 14.2V is fairly standard output of many solar controllers. Does this, then, pose a danger to the control boards (as discussed in this thread)?
14.2 is actually lower than the equalization voltage recommended for my lead acid batteries. If you are using lithium, 14.2 is lower than the charge voltage as well. Since several of the control boards in your trailer can't handle voltages long term above 13.5 volts, then the answer is YES.
Is ETI wiring the solar output in such a way that it goes directly to the batteries, or does it go through the WFCO first; and if the latter, does the WFCO do anything to reduce the voltage?
ETI wires the solar controller output through a thermal fuse then directly to the batteries. The WFCO does not reduce the solar controller voltage.
Is there any advantage to adding a buck/boost regulator to a device's circuit, versus just a buck regulator? Is low voltage a danger to the control boards also?
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A buck regulator requires that the input voltage is higher than the output voltage to operate. So a buck regulator would typically need at least a 12.7v input to output 12v. Since a lead acid battery has a 12.7v output only when 100% charged, the buck regulator would only regulate to 12v when the battery was fully charged and allow the voltage to drop as the battery discharged.A buck/boost regulator will operate over a range of voltages - for example, the one I use for my regulator mod will operate from 5-32 volts with a constant 12v output. Low voltage is a problem for control boards as well as they pull more current during operation under low voltage. Most control boards have a low voltage limit defined as well as the high voltage limit.
__________________
Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Engineers believe in fixing it so that it never breaks.
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02-09-2022, 06:42 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Oswego, New York
Trailer: 2017 Escape 21C, 2018 Ford F150
Posts: 5,363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryb67
We were hiking today with our friends with an AM Solar purchased system for his Airstream, but installed by the Minnesota Airstream dealer. His 300 watt system is seven years old as are his Lifeline AGM batteries. Lifeline suggested he manually desulfate after every 30 days of camping at 15.5 volts. How many here are desulfating their batteries at over 15 volts?
Food for thought,
Perry
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Not all AGM battery manufacturers recommend (or allow) running equalization (desulfating). Lifeline is one that does. I'd check with my battery manufacturer before equalizing.
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02-09-2022, 09:45 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Trailer: 2021 21NE
Posts: 516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVA
Couple of thoughts on this interesting subject.
I called the tech line for Suburban water heaters, the tech line for MaxxFan, and Dinosaur boards. I also reviewed the literature on-line for the water heater, furnace, and MaxxAir fan.
In summary, the water heater and furnace manuals state max voltage per TDF's earlier comment. The tech at Suburban had no understanding if the water heater control board had higher voltage protection.
MaxxAir tech was knowledgeable and helpful. He stated the design voltage range for the "A" series of fans ("A" in the serial number) is 10.8V-13.6V. If the voltage is exceeded 13.6V, the "recent" boards (tech was not clear what was recent - last few years?) are supposed to have high voltage protection. At 13.6V+, the fan current cuts out for 20-30 minutes and the resets afterword. Interestingly, the "B" series of fans (as designated by a B in the serial number which was released last November) are designed to 15.0V to accommodate Li systems. Interestingly, the tech stated repeatedly that the problem was with solar controllers, not Li based systems. Clearly the AC-DC converter outputs ~14.5V, similarly to the solar controller. But the tech did not state shore power was the problem. Odd.
Per TDF's earlier comment, the Dinosaur rep stated that all boards are good for 15.0V.
Speculation - is there an understanding if the type/brand of solar controller (or the lack of solar) correlates with MaxxFan failures?
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HMMM? I guess I need to contact MaxxAir because my serial number has neither an "A" or a "B". We would like to know if we have the "vulnerable" circuit board. We took possession of our trailer in September 2021.
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02-09-2022, 09:59 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Trailer: 2012 E19
Posts: 1,733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdf-texas
A buck regulator requires that the input voltage is higher than the output voltage to operate. So a buck regulator would typically need at least a 12.7v input to output 12v. Since a lead acid battery has a 12.7v output only when 100% charged, the buck regulator would only regulate to 12v when the battery was fully charged and allow the voltage to drop as the battery discharged.A buck/boost regulator will operate over a range of voltages - for example, the one I use for my regulator mod will operate from 5-32 volts with a constant 12v output. Low voltage is a problem for control boards as well as they pull more current during operation under low voltage. Most control boards have a low voltage limit defined as well as the high voltage limit.
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Thanks for that info, I appreciate it. One more question, please. I seem to recall seeing (on my previous travel trailer) that when the sun got low and my portable panel stopped producing, the trailer's battery would soon settle to about 13.7V (tested with handheld meter & probes at battery terminals). Assuming this is normal behavior, and knowing that a furnace running (electrical load) would quickly lower the voltage even further is it safe to say that a furnace control board which only runs "after hours" would not be significantly endangered? (I realize, this is a somewhat unrealistic 'best-case scenario'.)
I used to wonder why WFCO didn't set their converters to output higher voltage for the sake of better charging and battery longevity, but this thread reveals the answer: they'd soon be blamed for frying a bunch of stuff!
__________________
Losing weight puts one at much greater risk of becoming thin.
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02-10-2022, 05:38 AM
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#34
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Baytown, Texas
Trailer: 2017 21' Escape - upgraded version
Posts: 2,697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike G
Thanks for that info, I appreciate it. One more question, please. I seem to recall seeing (on my previous travel trailer) that when the sun got low and my portable panel stopped producing, the trailer's battery would soon settle to about 13.7V (tested with handheld meter & probes at battery terminals). Assuming this is normal behavior, and knowing that a furnace running (electrical load) would quickly lower the voltage even further is it safe to say that a furnace control board which only runs "after hours" would not be significantly endangered? (I realize, this is a somewhat unrealistic 'best-case scenario'.)
I used to wonder why WFCO didn't set their converters to output higher voltage for the sake of better charging and battery longevity, but this thread reveals the answer: they'd soon be blamed for frying a bunch of stuff!
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The furnace control board is connected to the trailer DC power all the time - not just when it is running. The thermostat doesn't switch power to the board on/off but just signals the furnace to start/stop.
On the other subject, why do RV device manufacturers design their equipment with high voltage limits that are lower than what a typical RV DC system would supply? Adding voltage regulators to these devices would not be necessary if they were designed correctly in the first place.
__________________
Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Engineers believe in fixing it so that it never breaks.
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02-10-2022, 06:12 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lanesboro, MN, between Whalan and Fountain, Minnesota
Trailer: 2016 Bigfoot 25RQ - (2018 Escape 5.0 sold)
Posts: 2,155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike G
Is ETI wiring the solar output in such a way that it goes directly to the batteries, or does it go through the WFCO first; and if the latter, does the WFCO do anything to reduce the voltage?
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When I installed a Victron 100/30 solar charge controller to replace the ETI supplied GoPower SCC I discovered the ground from the GoPower was connected to the frame ground at the WFCO, not directly connected to the battery bank. While it doesn't go directly through the WFCO it uses the frame ground instead of the battery ground. For example, the Go Power would show 14.2 whereas the Victron 712 would show 14v. Now the Victron SSC and the Victron 712 show the same voltage.
Is this a problem to worry about? Perhaps, however, there is an extra negative hop, showing a voltage loss, and needless connections/paths are never a good idea.
Food for thought,
Perry
__________________
Those who know everything use pens. Intelligent people use pencils.
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02-11-2022, 01:43 AM
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#36
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdf-texas
On the other subject, why do RV device manufacturers design their equipment with high voltage limits that are lower than what a typical RV DC system would supply? Adding voltage regulators to these devices would not be necessary if they were designed correctly in the first place.
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Years (or decades) ago when most of this stuff was designed, no one was setting RV converters to supply 14.6 V to charge non-existent lithium-ion batteries, and few RVs had solar power system... the charge came from a shore power converter which was often just set to deliver float voltage (less than 14 V) or the tow vehicle (as much as 14.2 V at the tug's battery, but less at the end of the all of the wiring if any useful current was flowing).
But yes, the poor voltage tolerance of much equipment is disappointing.
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02-11-2022, 01:47 AM
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#37
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Trailer: 1979 Boler B1700
Posts: 14,935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdf-texas
If that whole trailer voltage regulator fails, instead of one device failing - now you have a whole trailer out of power. Think single points of failure analysis.
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True... so if using a single voltage regulator, wire it with a bypass switch.
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02-11-2022, 08:06 AM
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#38
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lanesboro, MN, between Whalan and Fountain, Minnesota
Trailer: 2016 Bigfoot 25RQ - (2018 Escape 5.0 sold)
Posts: 2,155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian B-P
True... so if using a single voltage regulator, wire it with a bypass switch.
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I seriously doubt I'll need a bypass, but I ordered extra wire to make a jumper that will take perhaps 5 minutes or less to install. I figure if I already have a jumper Murphy won't rear his ugly head.
Enjoy,
Perry
__________________
Those who know everything use pens. Intelligent people use pencils.
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02-11-2022, 08:54 AM
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#39
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Baytown, Texas
Trailer: 2017 21' Escape - upgraded version
Posts: 2,697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perryb67
When I installed a Victron 100/30 solar charge controller to replace the ETI supplied GoPower SCC I discovered the ground from the GoPower was connected to the frame ground at the WFCO, not directly connected to the battery bank. While it doesn't go directly through the WFCO it uses the frame ground instead of the battery ground. For example, the Go Power would show 14.2 whereas the Victron 712 would show 14v. Now the Victron SSC and the Victron 712 show the same voltage.
Is this a problem to worry about? Perhaps, however, there is an extra negative hop, showing a voltage loss, and needless connections/paths are never a good idea.
Food for thought,
Perry
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The WFCO ground stud is used by ETI for both the DC and AC ground connection. Some of the trailer DC negative returns are through the trailer frame is the reason why the battery negative is connected to the frame. (emergency brake circuit, tongue jack, etc)
It shouldn't be a problem as the battery negative is connected to the same stud and should be the return path for the ret of the DC devices.
If you want to improve the system, add a negative return bar and move all the negative wiring from the WFCO stud to the bar. You would still need a connection from the bar to the WFCO stud but all the rest of the devices would have a better return path than the stacked connection on the stud.
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post367166
https://www.escapeforum.org/forums/f...tml#post367466
__________________
Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Engineers believe in fixing it so that it never breaks.
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02-11-2022, 09:31 AM
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#40
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Lanesboro, MN, between Whalan and Fountain, Minnesota
Trailer: 2016 Bigfoot 25RQ - (2018 Escape 5.0 sold)
Posts: 2,155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdf-texas
The WFCO ground stud is used by ETI for both the DC and AC ground connection. Some of the trailer DC negative returns are through the trailer frame is the reason why the battery negative is connected to the frame. (emergency brake circuit, tongue jack, etc)
It shouldn't be a problem as the battery negative is connected to the same stud and should be the return path for the ret of the DC devices.
If you want to improve the system, add a negative return bar and move all the negative wiring from the WFCO stud to the bar. You would still need a connection from the bar to the WFCO stud but all the rest of the devices would have a better return path than the stacked connection on the stud.
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Been there, saw that, fixed that.
This is what ours looked like:
There is NO excuse for this poor ground connection! Period!
Two rings on one post, no problem. Some will connect three to one post. Seven? No way!
I just about fell over when I traced the GoPower ground back to that pile of ring connectors.
It's the first wiring change that should be fixed with everyone's Escape.
Perry
__________________
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