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Old 03-16-2023, 08:44 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by splitting_lanes View Post
I went with the AmpereTime 300ah, same size as the 200ah with a 200 amp bms. I really like this battery so far…. Yesterday we had some extreme weather that knocked our power out for 11 hours— I ran an extension cord from the trailer to my fish tank and used the trailer’s inverter and battery to keep the fish & coral happy. ( the litime is AmpereTime rebranded)

The new minis look great, if you can’t fit the 200ah, a pair of those should work great.
I just found out this morning that the minis are pouch cells. that's going to change my plans

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Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz View Post
when I did my upgrade about a year ago, I wasn't aware WFCO had a lithium upgrade available. I'd seen a few folks have WFCO's fail... I repaired one for a fellow camper in a big stick trailer during a massive heatwave, when his DC system failed, he couldn't turn on his air conditioner, as his thermostat needed 12VDC. He picked up a PD4655V from a nearby RV parts dealer, and I installed it for him the next morning when my wife got back from a run to Reno, and all my tools were in my truck. BOY was he happy when cool air came out of his A/C again. I suggested he should probably replace his dual 6V batts when he could as they looked pretty sad after getting run down to 0V. This was an elderly gentleman who was camping at the Elks Lodge in Chico because his home in the mountains was under evacuation from wildfires.

I'm *not* 100% happy with the PD4655L ... in Lithium mode, it outputs 14.6V once the charge approaches 100%, and it stays there. it really should drop to about 13.6V about 30 minutes after the current drops enough to hit 14.6V. I have been leaving my charge controller switched OFF via its breaker, and only switching it on when I need to bulk charge my batteries due to no sun for a week+, or when I know I'm going off grid and want to start with a fully charged battery. 90% of the time, even mid winter, my 350W solar panel can keep me fully charged.
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Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz View Post
oh, and installing the Orion-TR DC-DC to 'fix' the charge from my truck? I dont' think I should have bothered. I got the 18A version, and it only seeing like 10V from the truck by the time it gets 40+ feet(*) back from the alternator, to make 18A from 10V requires like 30A draw off the truck. I probably should have just disconnected the tug power instead of running a separate wire for the emergency brake bypass, so I could use the OE wire into the Orion. I *thought* having the Orion 18A was like a belt-and-suspenders thing, but the reality is, my solar is good enough for 90%, and there's just not enough left over for the tug charging to matter.


* - 21 foot truck, 21 foot trailer. alternator in front, battery systems in back.
I am checking into removing fuse in charge like of my f150 instead of a dc-dc converter. As you mention not much charge gets there anyway. that way I can tow in cold temps without a charge going back to trailer. some batteries have a cold weather charging Disconnect and some do not. a lot of the manufactures are only using one temp probe. I did see a tear down of a enjoyBot battery that used 6 cold weather sensors.
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Originally Posted by TTMartin View Post
The 55 Amp converter will not overload a 2000 watt generator regardless of the size of the wires running to the battery. The converter will draw less than a 1000 watts period.

What will overload the generator is forgetting and leaving other things running on 120 volt AC like leaving the refrigerator on Automatic so it switches to AC when using the generator, or leaving the AC heating element on in a dual water heater.

Where leaving Escape's 8 AWG wire becomes an issue is less with charging as that current is limited by the converter itself. The issue is with discharge, the 8 AWG wire is woefully inadequate when using adding an inverter like the OP did.
Thats good to know. yes i understand if batteries need a heavy charge no other ac would run at same time.I still have two short runs of ETI 8 AWG from the converter to ground and 2 feet on positive side to junction block.Of course this has been no problem with the lead acid, but may need to be upsize with lithium. All my battery cables and inverter cables are 2/0

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Originally Posted by TTMartin View Post
I was able to shoehorn two 100ah LiFEPO4 group 27 size batteries behind the power center in my 2020 Escape19. There certainly is not room for 3 batteries there. I was able to fit a 300ah Chins Smart battery which has a 200 amp BMS and an internal heater in the storage box.
Thats what I liked about the new mini. 3 of them fit there no problem, But I just just found out this morning that the minis are pouch cells. that's going to change my plans.
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Old 03-16-2023, 08:55 AM   #42
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I wouldn’t rule out pouch cells automatically, the original Renology used them, and I’m not sure, but BattleBorns might use them. Certainly they aren’t serviceable by the end user like some of the others. Even then the cheapest batteries are sealed boxes and hard to self service. BattleBorns makes a gc2 form factor, but pricey. Really three markets out there low end sealed batteries, mid grade like SOK and Renology and high end like BattleBorns, Victron, and the newer Pylontech(my current favorite if I was to do over) The high end will be closer to 1000 for 100 amp hours. Truthfully most batteries out there will outlast me and my camping timeframe as I’m 71.
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Old 03-16-2023, 09:05 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWYORKHILLBILLY View Post
I am checking into removing fuse in charge like of my f150 instead of a dc-dc converter. As you mention not much charge gets there anyway. that way I can tow in cold temps without a charge going back to trailer. some batteries have a cold weather charging Disconnect and some do not. a lot of the manufactures are only using one temp probe. I did see a tear down of a enjoyBot battery that used 6 cold weather sensors.
We have a 2019 F150 Lariat. Since we installed the SOK’s in January our truck has been charging just fine without disconnecting anything and no DC-DC controller. We’ve also been towing in cold temperatures. Others on the DYI Solar Power Forum with Ford F150’s don’t seem to need to do anything either. We’ve already pulled our Bigfoot over 3,000 miles and the F150’s battery is always charged and the alternator is still running.

What year/model F150 do you have?

Food for thought,

Perry
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Old 03-16-2023, 11:51 AM   #44
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I wouldn’t rule out pouch cells automatically, the original Renology used them, and I’m not sure, but BattleBorns might use them. Certainly they aren’t serviceable by the end user like some of the others. Even then the cheapest batteries are sealed boxes and hard to self service. BattleBorns makes a gc2 form factor, but pricey. Really three markets out there low end sealed batteries, mid grade like SOK and Renology and high end like BattleBorns, Victron, and the newer Pylontech(my current favorite if I was to do over) The high end will be closer to 1000 for 100 amp hours. Truthfully most batteries out there will outlast me and my camping timeframe as I’m 71.
I thought battle born used lifepo4 cylinder cells. Honestly I don't know much about pouch cells. I think I prefer the prismatic cells automotive type cells. This way if my Chinese battery dies because of BMS after the 5 year warranty at least I can open the case and get the cells out or replace the BMS. Certainly not as easy as in a SOK but could be done.

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Originally Posted by Perry Butler View Post
We have a 2019 F150 Lariat. Since we installed the SOK’s in January our truck has been charging just fine without disconnecting anything and no DC-DC controller. We’ve also been towing in cold temperatures. Others on the DYI Solar Power Forum with Ford F150’s don’t seem to need to do anything either. We’ve already pulled our Bigfoot over 3,000 miles and the F150’s battery is always charged and the alternator is still running.

What year/model F150 do you have?

Food for thought,

Perry
2022 F150 xl STX I believe the SOK's have low temp charging protection so it would not be A issue. The cheaper batteries don't have it or its unreliable. Most are starting to ad it. A lot of them are using One temp sensor in the center of the pack. well, the ends will be the first to freeze. my thought is on these cheaper packs it's better not to have it. at least you know it's not going to work. So if I disable my charge line and just charge off solar and program the Victron to stop charging at 5 Celsius. I would solve that problem. The big question will I even miss what the F150 charge line puts out. Maybe a switch in the charge line would be a better solution.
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Old 03-16-2023, 12:20 PM   #45
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I thought battle born used lifepo4 cylinder cells. Honestly I don't know much about pouch cells. I think I prefer the prismatic cells automotive type cells. This way if my Chinese battery dies because of BMS after the 5 year warranty at least I can open the case and get the cells out or replace the BMS. Certainly not as easy as in a SOK but could be done.



2022 F150 xl STX I believe the SOK's have low temp charging protection so it would not be A issue. The cheaper batteries don't have it or its unreliable. Most are starting to ad it. A lot of them are using One temp sensor in the center of the pack. well, the ends will be the first to freeze. my thought is on these cheaper packs it's better not to have it. at least you know it's not going to work. So if I disable my charge line and just charge off solar and program the Victron to stop charging at 5 Celsius. I would solve that problem. The big question will I even miss what the F150 charge line puts out. Maybe a switch in the charge line would be a better solution.
The SOK low temp protection works well. My Trailer is stored but I ave monitoring on it to see what the solar is doing. When temps dropped yesterday the battery stopped taking a charge, so I went in a disabled charging on my MPPT. Today when the temps rose to over 40 I re-enabled it and the batteries are charging well.
These seem to be decent quality units according to Will Prouse, so far I'm satisfied. By the way I do not have the heated units, my batteries are inside and when we traveled across the country on 80 in January the batteries never got too cold with the excellent insulation in our trailer. The only issues I seem to have is refining the smart shunt be a bit more accurate in its soc values. Also my alternator is 220 amps and so far the 18 amp dc to dc is performing adequately with the stock 10 gauge coming into the 7 pin. I may yet run a dedicated heavier wire depending on the performance on our 3 month trip this summer. I believe you are correct about the BattleBorns using cylindrical cells

Either way there plenty of players in the LiPO landscape.
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Old 03-16-2023, 07:42 PM   #46
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This morning we left Joe Skeen campgound around 9 am with heavy overcast. Our rooftop was putting out about 2 amps and we have 1 amp of overhead in the camper (fridge board, propane and fire alarms, but only one computer charging at a low rate). We went from 15 watts with the truck not running to 65 watts with the truck running. It didn't seem to make any difference idling vs driving down the road. In other words the trucks alternator was not in overdrive, but was somehow regulating the output to around 50 watts.

Since the batteries were brand new I wasn't worried about charging below freezing and the SOK's BMS worked perfectly. However, when I get home I'll be installing a switch in the charge line, since we have no problem charging the batteries with the 160 watt rooftop and the 100 watt portable.

According to our 100/50 Victron controller the Carmanah (Canadian company) 160 watt panel put out 181 watts somewhere on our drive today. The most I'd seen previously was 167 watts and have seen 150's numerous times. This panel is a keeper!

Also, according to the portable's 100/20 Victron controller we've seen as much as 120 watts from the Renogy 100 watt portable, and numerous times 110-118. This portable has always had no problems going over the rated wattage.

Again, we have no problem charging with our 160 watt rooftop and 100 watt portable, with our current needs, so a DC-DC controller is not needed, nor wanted. KISS!

Food for thought,

Perry
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Old 03-17-2023, 10:25 AM   #47
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I disconnected the tow vehicle charging line. Solar works but I have quite a bit of solar. If solar doesn't work then it isn't a problem to reconnect the charging line and add a switch if you need one. BMS should take care of switching the charging off if below freezing.
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Old 03-17-2023, 11:59 AM   #48
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BMS should take care of switching the charging off if below freezing.
The key word is "should". The #1 failure on DYI Forum is the failure of the BMS. We're currently gambling that our SOK BMS works properly, but . . .

I'll be installing the switch when we get home. Plus, I'll be adding 400 more watts.

Enjoy,

Perry
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Old 03-17-2023, 12:37 PM   #49
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The key word is "should". The #1 failure on DYI Forum is the failure of the BMS. We're currently gambling that our SOK BMS works properly, but . . .

I'll be installing the switch when we get home. Plus, I'll be adding 400 more watts.

Enjoy,

Perry
My understanding is the BMS charge disconnected should be the last safety feature For example program your solar to stop charging a few degrees before the Bms would stop charging. Two safety features in place. Switch in vehicle charge line would also be a nice first safety feature. Another consideration if you tow in very could below zero you need some way to heat the battery. not too many of us see that cold but if you live in the north -4 degrees is common. Most of these BMS will not shut off low temp current only charging and the ones that do a total disconnect do not take into account two importin considerations. Your breakaway switch will not have power and your solar controller will lose it battery connection with panels still outputting. In my case I see lots of weather down to 0 degrees when camping, but not much below so it probably would not be issue. ETI still selling lots of the models with lithium outside. If it gets 5 below zero and to head south, you need to heat that battery somehow before you leave. On the other direction if it gets two hot and bms shuts down you have the same two problems. probably not likely if battery is inside. But if you have 17' in the desert driving on 100 + day and your battery in a black box could easily hit the high temp limit and disconnect. lots of solar amps going to controller that lost its power and no breakaway switch. certainly, there is ways to work around these issues. But it does have me wondering if lilium is right for me. I know if I move my batteries inside on my 19 I can solve most the problems, But I will be relying on the dometic furnace witch we all know has a history of failing just when you need it most. Just thinking outload.
thanks for posting the real-world charge numbers from the f-150
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Old 03-17-2023, 01:51 PM   #50
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Prismatic versus pouch cells?

Prismatic versus pouch cells?

I don't know much about Pouch cells. The reason I ask is LItime has a 100ah mini that I can fit 3 in behind my converter. When I first found out it was built with pouch cells I was turned off. Honestly don't know much about them. Is there any reason to pick one cell type over the other for our applications? https://www.litime.com/products/litime-12v-100ah-mini-lifepo4-lithium-battery-upgraded-100a-bms-max-1280wh-energy?gclid=Cj0KCQjwn9CgBhDjARIsAD15h0BZ3wfLvllJV O5casf1dPktUGD2AFnLV7fvqVmD_EXZTz87w5fq4f8aAsNBEAL w_wcB
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Old 03-17-2023, 01:52 PM   #51
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The Victron smart Orion dc to dc charger has an auto detect mode that shuts the device down when it detects that the alternator is no longer charging. This prevents the at rest back charging. It also has the ability to have a hard shut off. Not sure if the Renology has a similar function.
The Renogy uses a D+ wire for alternator sensing. Since the trailer plug doesn't have a D+ feed I just jumped a line from the power in side to the D+ connection. There are a couple alternatives one is simply put a switch in the jumper wire between the power and the D+ input. The other would be to tap into the trailer lights and run that to the D+ input. Since, I always have my lights on when towing, and seldom do when parked. Or a combination of the two so if I want to leave the parking lights on with the engine off I could manually switch the DC to DC charger off. Otherwise, it would be on when the trailer marker lights are on.
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Old 03-17-2023, 04:06 PM   #52
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The victron has alternator detect that shuts off when the engine is off, mine works well. I’m not sure why alternator charging is so looked down on, the dc to dc is relatively cheap and in line install is simple if you don’t care about getting the maximum out of your alternator. I think I’m getting 8 to 10 amps with the stock 7 pin wiring. I’ll do a bit more measuring this summer. To get the 20 to 30 amps require a dedicated wire and the more capable dc to dc. I’m my estimation why ignore the free charging?
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Old 03-17-2023, 05:55 PM   #53
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the cells in the SOK look like bricks. I dunno if thats 'prismatic' or what.
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Old 03-17-2023, 06:05 PM   #54
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the cells in the SOK look like bricks. I dunno if thats 'prismatic' or what.
yes, They are prismatic.
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Old 03-17-2023, 07:13 PM   #55
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I also have specific size requirements. I need to fit behind my converter.
Not sure how much space you have but don’t rule out the Bestgo 200 or 400AH lithium’s. 150A continuous discharge rating but BMS is actually rated for 200A up to 60 mins.

https://www.electriccarpartscompany....m-battery-pack
https://www.electriccarpartscompany....-battery-packs
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Old 03-18-2023, 07:22 AM   #56
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Not sure how much space you have but don’t rule out the Bestgo 200 or 400AH lithium’s. 150A continuous discharge rating but BMS is actually rated for 200A up to 60 mins.

https://www.electriccarpartscompany....m-battery-pack
https://www.electriccarpartscompany....-battery-packs
I have to measure might fit. only problem I have to remove plywood when removing for winter. have the prices gone up since you bought? seems other have come down some.
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Old 03-18-2023, 08:12 AM   #57
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only problem I have to remove plywood when removing for winter.
Would cutting a new piece of plywood help? Move the hinges toward the wall something like this?
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Old 03-18-2023, 09:59 AM   #58
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As to removing for winter, check the specifications on the lithium battery you choose. For example, Battleborn only requires removing the batteries if they go below -15°F, and that is to protect the plastic internal supports. I suspect if you don't move the trailer you could go below that.
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Old 03-18-2023, 10:43 AM   #59
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As to removing for winter, check the specifications on the lithium battery you choose. For example, Battleborn only requires removing the batteries if they go below -15°F, and that is to protect the plastic internal supports. I suspect if you don't move the trailer you could go below that.
In 2021, after our Crown AGM’s failed because the WFCO decided to charge them at 20.3 volts, I contacted Battborn for an update on my inquiries in 2019. They told me if their batteries were to go below -17F they would be completely ruined. Apparently their chemistry or results have changed?

Enjoy,

Perry
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Old 03-18-2023, 10:58 AM   #60
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I have to measure might fit. only problem I have to remove plywood when removing for winter. have the prices gone up since you bought? seems other have come down some.
Just FYI, I have the mentioned Bestgo 400Ah version ('standard', not 'pro'), this from the (attached) spec sheet regarding storage:
Storage Temperature: -10°C ~ 40°C ( for ≤ 3 months); Keep SOC at 40~60% for long term storage
Note the attached sheet also has dimensioned drawings for your reference.

As to price, it appears that the current is ~$300 less than I paid on 05/28/2021.

There's many more lithium options on the market today but FWIW I've zero regrets about the Bestgo purchase, IMO it's a very robust item with a set of ratings that more than meet my requirements. The rated BMS Maximum Discharge Current is more than adequate for any 'starting' or continuous loads I've been able to impose through my 2000W (nominal) / 4000W(surge) xantrex Freedom XC inverter. I'm running a 250A Class T fuse between the battery and my DC+ bus with a 200A breaker between the bus and my inverter.
Maximum Discharge Current:
≤ 200 A @ 60min,23°C, 30%≤ SOC ≤100%
≤ 400 A @ 15s, 23°C, 30%≤ SOC ≤100%
≤ 650 A @ 0.5s, 23°C, 30%≤ SOC ≤100%

The vendor (ECPC) was a pleasure to work with, very responsive to tech questions, IMO it's a product worthy of consideration by folks looking for an LiFePO4 solution.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Bestgo-Preferred-12V400Ah-3-10.pdf (604.9 KB, 8 views)
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