Freezing Concerns for LiFePO4 Batteries?

[Oregon21NE]

The lithium batteries are LiFePO4 unless I am sadly mistaken, and as far as I know they don't take kindly to attempts to charge them below freezing.

My 21NE has those outside in the utility chest near the hitch - how worried do I need to be about that? Is there a low-temp sensor? Does it have a heating mat? Any cold weather issues with similar setups?

Planning ahead! Sure it's summer now but...

[NEWYORKHILLBILLY]

This is why they should be installed inside. You should not have to worry about damage. Most these Batteries Have BMS (battery management systems) that will stop them from charging at required temperature. They also will shut off the discharge if it gets cold enough. The problem is if you want to use them in these conditions.Not sure with batteries you have but you could look up the spec's on them. I often camp in below freezing weather and would want them inside.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Some of the newer premium Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries have an integrated heater, connected to the battery's internal BMS such that if you try and charge them when the batteries internal temps are near or below freezing, they divert the charging power to the heater until they are warm enough to be safely charged. The complication with this is, external battery monitoring systems aren't aware this is happening, so will get the charge state confused, but many of these new batteries have integrated bluetooth battery monitoring.

[EdColorado]

Do you have solar panels to keep the batteries charged while in winter storage or use?
If so, some concerned with freezing, use 12v heating pads wired to the batteries. Plus a thermostat to turn the heaters on and off.
Here is an example of what I’m talking about. There are other options.

https://www.amazon.com/12V-Flexible-...11&sr=8-7&th=1https://www.amazon.com/12V-Flexible-...11&sr=8-7&th=1

[rubicon327]

If you have the Go Power Sun Cycle lithium you can’t charge below 32F. You can discharge down to -4F. The integral BMS has these protections among others. If you aren’t camping just remove the battery and put it in a heated space during the winter. If you are using the trailer you need to consider moving them inside or getting aftermarket heating pads as mentioned. It would be nice if ETI offered a lithium battery with integral heating (like Battleborn or Lithionics) when they are outside the shell and the owner may be winter camping.

[gjsheldon]

Originally Posted by EdColorado

Do you have solar panels to keep the batteries charged while in winter storage or use?
If so, some concerned with freezing, use 12v heating pads wired to the batteries. Plus a thermostat to turn the heaters on and off.
Here is an example of what I’m talking about. There are other options.

https://www.amazon.com/12V-Flexible-...11&sr=8-7&th=1

Originally Posted by rubicon327

If you have the Go Power Sun Cycle lithium you can’t charge below 32F. You can discharge down to -4F. The integral BMS has these protections among others. If you aren’t camping just remove the battery and put it in a heated space during the winter. If you are using the trailer you need to consider moving them inside or getting aftermarket heating pads as mentioned. It would be nice if ETI offered a lithium battery with integral heating (like Battleborn or Lithionics) when they are outside the shell and the owner may be winter camping.

Now that winter is approaching I'm going to revive this thread. I live in Loveland, CO and, unfortunately, have to keep my 5.0 in outside storage during the winter months. It has 2 solar panels on top and dual lithium Go Power Sun Cycle batteries. Last year I removed both the lithium batteries from the trailer and it had a cover on it which was destroyed in one season with the wind and weather (but I'm presuming this prevented the panels from trying to charge non-existent batteries). This year it will again be in outside storage but without a cover (washed, waxed and 303 Protectant applied). In my research for a better solution I've read that removing the batteries isn't good for the solar controller with the solar panels still actively trying to charge "nothing". I'm looking for the best and easiest solution to this dilemma. So my questions are:

1. Battery heaters with thermostat controls and leave the batteries in place inside the trailer? Should I be concerned about having heater pads periodically active inside an "away from home" stored trailer.

2. Solar panel disconnect switch and leave the batteries in place inside the trailer. Is there any harm to the batteries if the temps drop to sub-freezing even if they aren't being charged by a disconnected controller?

3. If I leave the panels connected to the charge controller, batteries in place, will the Go Power Sun Cycle BMS automatically control what happens depending on the temperature.

Open to any and all suggestions.

[John in Santa Cruz]

I added a disconnect switch to my 360W solar panel, this should always be turned 'off' (disconnected) before disconnecting the batteries. I used one of those marine style rotary disconnect switches thats rated for 250 amps or something, total overkill for the application (my panel is like 36V at 10A.

[MrLynn]

Kinda glad I've got legacy lead-acid batteries. I have the Escape on 30A shore power all the time when it's home, and the converter takes care of the batteries. At least that's the way it worked on our Casita. No reason I can think of why it wouldn't for the Escape.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by MrLynn

Kinda glad I've got legacy lead-acid batteries. I have the Escape on 30A shore power all the time when it's home, and the converter takes care of the batteries. At least that's the way it worked on our Casita. No reason I can think of why it wouldn't for the Escape.

just be sure to check the electrolyte level in the batteries every month or two, and add distilled water to the level marker in the vent port as needed.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by gjsheldon

Now that winter is approaching I'm going to revive this thread. I live in Loveland, CO and, unfortunately, have to keep my 5.0 in outside storage during the winter months. It has 2 solar panels on top and dual lithium Go Power Sun Cycle batteries. Last year I removed both the lithium batteries from the trailer and it had a cover on it which was destroyed in one season with the wind and weather (but I'm presuming this prevented the panels from trying to charge non-existent batteries). This year it will again be in outside storage but without a cover (washed, waxed and 303 Protectant applied). In my research for a better solution I've read that removing the batteries isn't good for the solar controller with the solar panels still actively trying to charge "nothing". I'm looking for the best and easiest solution to this dilemma. So my questions are:

1. Battery heaters with thermostat controls and leave the batteries in place inside the trailer? Should I be concerned about having heater pads periodically active inside an "away from home" stored trailer.

2. Solar panel disconnect switch and leave the batteries in place inside the trailer. Is there any harm to the batteries if the temps drop to sub-freezing even if they aren't being charged by a disconnected controller?

3. If I leave the panels connected to the charge controller, batteries in place, will the Go Power Sun Cycle BMS automatically control what happens depending on the temperature.

Open to any and all suggestions.

I let my solar controller charge "nothing" last winter (in the Denver area). No apparent harm done. But this year I added a disconnect switch to the solar input to the controller and one for the batteries out to the "house". They will sit in the trailer all winter - but that said, the manufacture recommends that they not be stored below 0F. I did add a few extra layers of bubble insulation to the storage compartment under the bench seat.

I would not want to charge the batteries in the winter since 32F seems to be the lowest temperature that lithium batteries can be charged.

[Live In The Moment]

It would be nice if ETI offered a lithium battery with integral heating (like Battleborn or Lithionics) when they are outside the shell and the owner may be winter camping.[/QUOTE]

I believe the Hublion lithium batteries that Escape now offer have a built in heating circuit.

https://hubpower.ca/wp-content/uploa...0-LFP-24-1.pdf

[splitting_lanes]

Lithium batteries don’t need to be continually charged, because they don’t discharge like FLA batteries.

I’m going to do as others have done and put a switch on the solar panel so I can turn it off in the winter or storage

Like this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...REN0ZV99&psc=1

[RangerMan]

Curious. Do the battrs in electric vehicles have the same issues that those with lithum do here? Cold weather!

Seems range would decrease in cold weather. Got to use some enegry to heat the car.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

I would not want to charge the batteries in the winter since 32F seems to be the lowest temperature that lithium batteries can be charged.

Many lithium batteries have low and high temperature protection built into the BMS. Even if I try to charge our Bestgo lithium outside the acceptable range the BMS will shut off the battery pack. This alleviates concern of always making sure there is no charging being attempted in cold temperatures.

[rubicon327]

Originally Posted by RangerMan

Curious. Do the battrs in electric vehicles have the same issues that those with lithum do here? Cold weather!

Seems range would decrease in cold weather. Got to use some enegry to heat the car.

Yes, they have battery heaters to keep everything operating properly and it will reduce range. There are other things to consider too. This is an interesting read specifically for Tesla's but I imagine would apply for many EV's
https://insideevs.com/features/46455...driving-guide/

[7Gentex]

Was interesting to watch the current draw from the HubLion twin 100 amp/hr batts for internal heating purposes over the last 3 days. On shore power with temps in the low teens at night / high 20's to just below freezing during day. Batts in the outside front storage. Saw about a 6 to 7ish amp draw (from the charger, not the batts) lasting about an hour & 1/2 (temp dependent) every 5 hours or so.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by 7Gentex

Was interesting to watch the current draw from the HubLion twin 100 amp/hr batts for internal heating purposes over the last 3 days. On shore power with temps in the low teens at night / high 20's to just below freezing during day. Batts in the outside front storage. Saw about a 6 to 7ish amp draw (from the charger, not the batts) lasting about an hour & 1/2 (temp dependent) every 5 hours or so.

so that around 9 amp*hours about 5 times/day, or 45 amp*hours total, 630 watt*hours. a lot more than RV sized solar panels could deliver under winter conditions (the 360W panel on my Escape can deliver 2000 WH/day in the summer when out in the open, but has only been delivering about 200-250 WH/day mid winter with partial shade.

[7Gentex]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

so that around 9 amp*hours about 5 times/day, or 45 amp*hours total, 630 watt*hours. a lot more than RV sized solar panels could deliver under winter conditions (the 360W panel on my Escape can deliver 2000 WH/day in the summer when out in the open, but has only been delivering about 200-250 WH/day mid winter with partial shade.

Appears I need to revise the usage WAY down from my original statement. The heater draw usually lasts for about 1/2 hour or so. Looks like 4, or 5, battery heater on instances in the AM timeframe.

[John in Santa Cruz]

as long as the batts aren't going below -20C (-4F), you don't need to warm them to use them, only to recharge them, so if you're on solar only, the heater would only have to run when there's sun to charge and the batts are below 0C/32F(*)... here's guessing that the first charging in the morning will need a lot more heater before it can kick off, tho, offseting the keeping it warm all night.

(*) actually, I've heard they use more like 5C/40F as the heating threshold to be safe.

[beebobby]

So if I'm reading the HubLion manual correctly, the charge temp range is -20 to 45c ( -4 to 113F) . They list the Storage Temp range as -5 to 35c (23 to 95f). 23F isn't very cold for here in mid-MO, but -4f is. My bluetooth Victron Connect app has been showing around 13v for weeks. We had a cold snap and temps have been in the teens. 2 days ago the app was at 11.37v. Yesterday it wouldn't pull up any data, so I assume that the batteries are pretty far down. Reading at the Zamp port is .17v. Could the temps have tripped a disconnect? 21C Single panel is covered, battery disconnect switch is in storage position.