Lithium Batteries used and stored in Northern Climates

[EdColorado]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

That's all good, but it assumes that the temperature doesn't drop below the safe storage temperature... and for many of us winter temperatures may be below that storage temperature (which varies by cell manufacturer).

Thanks again, Brian.

More homework for me to do.

Ed

[Iowa Dave]

I have a nice Cortland which was not destroyed by the derecho. My McIntosh got fire blight so I’m going to replace it in the spring. The derecho got my Granny Smith , one of my Haralsons
and a Sweet 16. I have two big Wolf Rivers that were getting shaded out, but the trees that shaded them got blown down too. I look for them to do a lot better next year. You can tell the difference between apples especially if you taste them when they have reached maximum sugar. I’ve got work to do down there yet. Here’s a couple pics I took today. The sumac is pretty much at peak. The little bluestem in the prairie colored up nice this fall. But first I gotta go campin for a few days. Priorities
Iowa Dave

[sumac.rhus]

Sorry for the drought! Hope your wonderful assortment of apple trees have opportunity to recover! ...Otherwise certainly a beautiful time of year (especially for sumac)...and good to enjoy getting out before the snow starts flying, and some of us start wondering if our lithium batteries are warm enough

[Iowa Dave]

Making firewood out of an apple tree trunk is a very sad deal. That I can tell you. Hopefully some of my kids will take some wood for smoking fish or meat. And share with me. I’ll probably have to catch my own trout. Only my son knows how to do that. Always the optimist, I enjoyed watching my 23 month old grand daughter Cody Jane pick and eat red raspberries this afternoon. Not many made the container. Then Grandma read her something on the phone.
Iowa Dave

[thataway4]

I have been using two 100 amp hr. Battle Born batteries for 3 years in a 25 foot pilot house boat. I find that over 6 months there is insignificant self discharge. You must turn off all accessories, which might cause parasitic drain. I accomplish this by a 500 amp on and off switch.

Lion was not on the horizon when I started my experiment. I choose Battle Born because of their robust construction (a number were torn down, and the BB seemed to have the best internal structure). The boat is subject to the same road conditions as a travel trailer, and then more G force when going thru heavy seas. Also I was impressed with the technical competence of the Battle Born people.

The Lion weight is 7# less, and they claim about the same capacity (100 amp hours). Most battery experts suggest that you not go to 100% Depth of discharge. The charging and discharge profile is different than an lead acid battery (or AGM). The resting state fully charged is almost 13.6 volts (vs 12.6 to 12.7 for FLA). The 80% discharge is at 12.8 volts. By 90% discharge the voltage has dropped to 12 volts. At 95% discharge the voltage is 11 volts and at 100% it is 9.7Volts. You do not want to subject appliances to those low voltages.

I always suggest that anyone using Li batteries monitor their voltage, as well as state of charge, by having a meter which shows amps in and amps out, as well as real time current draw. I use the Victron 702 monitor.

I doubt that leaving the batteries in the Escape over the winter would cause any damage, but be absolutely certain that they batteries were disconnected by either a switch or disconnecting the cables. I notice that at least some of the Lion come with wing nuts. Wing nuts are not a good idea. Unless you use pliers you cannot get them tight enough. I always use a brass flat washer, lock washer and then a hex nut of the appropriate size. Battle Born includes nylox lock nuts (the problem with those is that under high load the nylon lock may melt. The recommenced torque for nuts on batteries is: 9 AND 11 ft-lbs using a torque wrench. Failure to do this can result in overheating and a fire.

[AKRogers]

This is why I would not consider the Lithium option in northern latitudes. Having my batteries dictate where and when I might be able to use my trailer is like the tail wagging the dog.

[jetalkington]

You really need to go your manufacturer and get their recommendation. I would not rely on google or any other source for storing lithium batteries. They cost to much to guess at.
For example; I am using lifeblue batteries. Their spec sheet, for my battery, says to store at 50% state of charge and to recharge when voltage drops below 13 V. It also says it is safe to store at -4F to -95F. That is from their site.

https://www.lifebluebattery.com/ewEx...ta%20Sheet.pdf

I too am in the middle of a build out and plan to make it easy to put my batteries in storage so I can monitor voltage and recharge as needed.

I live in Northern Illinois, as well, and 2 winters ago we set a record low of actual temperature of -36. So I was concerned about my investment in Lithium.

I have 15 AGM batteries and all I do to them is top them off and put a full charge on them, put them in a garage and come back to them in the spring. They are rarely below 85% SOC.
LifeBlue recommends the 50% SOC to extend battery life. Your manufacture may be different. I did not know this and had I not read through their spec sheet I would have treated them as my AGM deep cycles.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by thataway4

I doubt that leaving the batteries in the Escape over the winter would cause any damage...

In Florida, I agree.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by jetalkington

You really need to go your manufacturer and get their recommendation. I would not rely on google or any other source for storing lithium batteries.

I agree.

Originally Posted by jetalkington

It also says it is safe to store at -4F to -95F.

That's -4°F to +95°F (-20°C to +35°C)... the "-95F" was obviously just a typo.

[jetalkington]

Yep, should have been ~95F.

Thanks for catching that.

[Scot schroeder]

Originally Posted by Illinois Joe

I'm looking for both recommended and practical aspects of using lithium batteries in northern climates. My typical usage of an RV is three season, which I assume is ok for lithium. However, during the winter, my RV will sit outside. Living in northern Illinois there will be days when temperatures are below 0 deg F and as low as -20 deg. There have even been 3-7 day stretches when the temperature stays below 0 deg F. If the RV isn't being used, would it be ok to leave the batteries in the RV? Would a solar panel be enough to maintain battery charge in the winter? Are lithium batteries not a good fit for RVs in the north?

See manufacturer. If you aren’t using the battery just turn it off so it doesn’t try to charge. Lithium isn’t like regular batteries. They can sit for months and will loose very little charge. I would take them out if you aren’t using the trailer. A Good lithium battery Has features built in to protect them and they are the best in my opinion.

[sumac.rhus]

Originally Posted by thataway4

...
Lion was not on the horizon when I started my experiment. I choose Battle Born because of their robust construction (a number were torn down, and the BB seemed to have the best internal structure). The boat is subject to the same road conditions as a travel trailer, and then more G force when going thru heavy seas.... Also I was impressed with the technical competence of the Battle Born people.

The Lion weight is 7# less, and they claim about the same capacity (100 amp hours)...
... I notice that at least some of the Lion come with wing nuts. Wing nuts are not a good idea. Unless you use pliers you cannot get them tight enough. I always use a brass flat washer, lock washer and then a hex nut of the appropriate size. Battle Born includes nylox lock nuts (the problem with those is that under high load the nylon lock may melt. The recommenced torque for nuts on batteries is: 9 AND 11 ft-lbs using a torque wrench. Failure to do this can result in overheating and a fire.

Thank you so much for your thoughts!

The Lion1300 is supposed to have made up for earlier amp deficiencies of the 1200 (which may or may not be accurate), but the more I read/hear about BB, am impressed by them...so am leaning toward getting over the additional weight lifting, when more intermittently using the trailer during winter months.

What I'm trying to figure out now, is how many batteries I should have. It hasn't been as simple, as I thought it might be, to figure out what each of the electronic components in my Escape demand.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by Scot schroeder

A Good lithium battery Has features built in to protect them and they are the best in my opinion.

Yes, all of the "drop-in replacement" units for RVs have a built-in battery management system (BMS), but that can't protect a battery from storage in a temperature which is too low.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by sumac.rhus

... What I'm trying to figure out now, is how many batteries I should have. It hasn't been as simple, as I thought it might be, to figure out what each of the electronic components in my Escape demand.

May I ask if an inverter-driven microwave is among the devices you want to support with your batteries? And assume that you are NOT trying to support air-conditioning?

I ask because if it is, methinks you'll find the inverter-driven microwave alone will be your overwhelming 'worst-case' load and will drive the 'number of batteries' decision, with all other loads (pumps, fans, lights, etc, etc) falling within the result.

IOW, a battery array sized to support some conservative assumption for running an inverter+microwave will be relatively insensitive to a range of guesses about A and Ah for other stuff like lights, fans, pumps, etc.

EDIT - I'm not sure how automated operation of an electric awning might fit in that scenario - that's one type of load I've not considered (I'm committed to a manual awning for other reasons).

YMMV

[sumac.rhus]

Originally Posted by Centex

May I ask if an inverter-driven microwave is among the devices you want to support with your batteries? And assume that you are NOT trying to support air-conditioning?

Thank you.

No electric awning, no microwave, no electric jack.
I DO have an airconditioner and EMS, but I don't use AC/120V unless plugged into an outside source of electricity. I also have the over-the stove hood/vent/light which I don't consistently use...but maybe would be sensible to use more often.

Can someone explain to me why when opting for the 1500W inverter it was required to also get the x2 6V batteries? ...and would THAT impact what I need have put onboard with the lithium conversion? ...I assumed it was r/t the increased amperage, but don't understand, as I wouldn't be using the inverter except when plugged into an outside source. I've still a LOT to learn!

It may have been overkill to opt for that inverter, but I wanted to at least have the option to splurge more on electricity when not solely battery and solar dependent. (I have the 160watt solar panel with charge controller from ETI)

I'm not totally frugal, but am thinking not extravagant...? When not plugged into an outside source of electricity, am using:
Continuously:
*fridge on propane (but it still uses some electricity, right?)
...and there is a fan I can turn on for especially hot weather...?
*and of course the propane sensor.
Intermittently:
* propane furnace (but it has a fan and runs off the thermostat),
*hot water heater on propane (but isn't there some electricity involved too?),
*12V water pump,
*LED lights,
*USB to charge phones/cameras...and sometimes power for watching
pre-downloaded Netlix or audio on cell phone(s).
*Would also be nice to be able to use the Maxxfan....or a fan of some sort.

I wonder if there is any other electricity I am not aware of running in the background.

[scubarx]

Originally Posted by sumac.rhus

I've been wondering re comparison between Battle Born (which seems a popular choice) and Lion Energy's Safari UT 1300:

https://lionenergy.com/products/lion-safari-ut-1300

Battery Type Lithium Ion
Battery Chemistry Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)
Rated Capacity 12.8V / 105Ah / 1344Wh / 150A - How we Measure
Cycle Life 3500+ & 100% DoD
Weight 23 Pounds
Dimensions 10.2" L X 6.6" W X 8.8" H (9.8" H to top of post)
Max Charge Rate 100A
Max Charge Voltage 14.6V
Operation Temperature -4 to 131 ºF
Charge Temperature 32 to 113 ºF

I especially like that it is only 23 pounds - making it that much easier to take in from the cold. The video says it is because of their use of "prismatic cells" instaed of "cylindrical cells". Does anyone have thoughts on what might lose by not opting for Battle Born?

This video should answer some of your questions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRe9TWEEoI0

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by sumac.rhus

Can someone explain to me why when opting for the 1500W inverter it was required to also get the x2 6V batteries? ...and would THAT impact what I need have put onboard with the lithium conversion? ...I assumed it was r/t the increased amperage...

Yes, the dual battery setup is required to avoid drawing too much current from the battery when using the inverter at full power, and to avoid running the battery charge level too far down when using the inverter for a sustained period.

The same concerns apply to the lithium batteries, so two of them should be used with the 1500 watt inverter.

Originally Posted by sumac.rhus

... but don't understand, as I wouldn't be using the inverter except when plugged into an outside source.

What do you mean by "an outside source"? If you mean 120 volt AC power from an outlet (in a serviced campsite, for instance), then the inverter is of no use to you. All the inverter does is convert 12 volt DC power from the battery into 120 volt AC power for appliances that need that. If you are plugged into an outside source of AC power, the inverter wouldn't even be turned on because it would have no purpose.

[sumac.rhus]

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

Yes, the dual battery setup is required to avoid drawing too much current from the battery when using the inverter at full power, and to avoid running the battery charge level too far down when using the inverter for a sustained period.

The same concerns apply to the lithium batteries, so two of them should be used with the 1500 watt inverter.

Thank you so much. That helps a lot.

Originally Posted by Brian B-P

do you mean by "an outside source"? If you mean 120 volt AC power from an outlet (in a serviced campsite, for instance), then the inverter is of no use to you. All the inverter does is convert 12 volt DC power from the battery into 120 volt AC power for appliances that need that. If you are plugged into an outside source of AC power, the inverter wouldn't even be turned on because it would have no purpose.

Oh wow! I sure didn't understand this before. Thank you for recognizing that I might not (and did not) understand something this basic! (Having my Escape has been the first time I've been motivated to not only see electricity as magic.....Its been a slow learning curve.) Thanks again!

[Illinois Joe]

Originally Posted by sumac.rhus

Thank you so much. That helps a lot.



Oh wow! I sure didn't understand this before. Thank you for recognizing that I might not (and did not) understand something this basic! (Having my Escape has been the first time I've been motivated to not only see electricity as magic.....Its been a slow learning curve.) Thanks again!

I think the confusion for some people comes from the closeness of the two terms. A "converter" is the device that converts 120v AC power down to the 12vDC used by most of the trailer components. An "inverter" converts 12vDC from your battery back into 120v AC for some of the appliances. Most (all?) trailers come with converters standard to manage electricity when your trailer is plugged into 120v. The inverter is an option in case you want to use power out of your battery to run 120v devices when not plugged in. As many have pointed out, this can be a big drain on battery power. P.S. I'm not sure if the "inverter" is designed to take care of also converting 120v down to 12v, therefore eliminating the need for a stand alone converter. Hoping someone else answers this one.

[Centex]

Originally Posted by Illinois Joe

... I'm not sure if the "inverter" is designed to take care of also converting 120v down to 12v, therefore eliminating the need for a stand alone converter. Hoping someone else answers this one.

"Inverting" and "converting" are two different and distinct functions as already described, most often fulfilled by two distinct and physically separate components. BUT some vendors do sell a single physical component that fulfills both functions, those being called a "converter/inverter" (or "inverter/converter" - same thing in a single box).

As mentioned, ETI does NOT use the 'single-component solution' even when both functions are ordered; at least one member here has installed an aftermarket 'single-component solution' in lieu of the ETI components in his highly DIY modified electrical system. There are pros and cons to each approach (two separate components vs a single combined component) when both functions are desired, but in either case you end-up with the same resulting functionality.