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Old 05-05-2020, 07:28 AM   #1
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Lithium Batteries?? VS dual 6 volts

I am looking at lithium batteries . I stayed away from them due to cost.I don't know that much about them but doing some reading they have some major advantages over lead acid .I had a few questions on them


1. Is it possible to get the same usable amp hours out of one 100ah lithium as you would with the duel 6 volts?
2. If you started with one 100ah lithium could you add another a few years down the road?I know this is a problem with lead acid they should be the same age when wired together.
3. besides cost is there any disadvantages to the lithium?
4. as i understand it it would be safe to have these inside the trailer ?
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Old 05-05-2020, 09:43 AM   #2
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I am looking at lithium batteries . I stayed away from them due to cost.I don't know that much about them but doing some reading they have some major advantages over lead acid .I had a few questions on them


1. Is it possible to get the same usable amp hours out of one 100ah lithium as you would with the duel 6 volts?

Yes. Since you can draw them down to 10%, and the voltage stays above 12V all the way down.

2. If you started with one 100ah lithium could you add another a few years down the road?I know this is a problem with lead acid they should be the same age when wired together.

While I have no actual experience with mixing old & new, since mine are only a year old, according to Battleborn, there is no problem adding additional batteries at a later date.

3. besides cost is there any disadvantages to the lithium?

There are temperature limits - they cannot be charged when below 32°F / above 115°F or discharged below -4°F. Battleborn suggests removing them if the storage temperature is below 0°F. For a single battery, you are limited to a 100 amp draw (in my case, I needed 2 to power my 950 watt microwave), and to get the most efficient charging, may need a different converter.

On the other hand, they charge much faster than lead acid batteries. No absorption phase, so the full output of your solar or converter goes into the batteries until they reach 98%.


4. as i understand it it would be safe to have these inside the trailer ?


At least as save as lead acid batteries. These are a different technology from the power tool / computer / even Tesla batteries.

I used the same battery box to install two Battleborn GC2 sized lithium batteries. Used them this winter at Quartzsite, AZ and have to say it has been the best modification to the Escape 21 so far. I do admit to using quite a bit more power than most, so it isn't for everyone.


I have a page describing the installation on my website.
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Old 05-05-2020, 09:55 AM   #3
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There are temperature limits - they cannot be charged when below 32°F / above 115°F or discharged below -4°F. Battleborn suggests removing them if the storage temperature is below 0°F. For a single battery, you are limited to a 100 amp draw
The nice thing about most Escapes is that the batteries are in the camper, where it is heated, so you should be able to charge and use Lithium all the time.

It's my understanding that a 100 ah Battleborn is limited to an 85 am draw.

I've been wrong many times in the past though. Just ask my wife!

__________________________________________

We have 220 ah AGM batteries. 50% draw is 110 ah. But it's suggested you try to keep your draw at 50% of that, or 55 ah. We've been to 80 ah draw once and in the upper 50's a couple of times. So we would have been close to the limit of the Battleborn, but only once.

The above is one reason we have a Martin Catalytic heater: to save the ah's.

Enjoy,

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Old 05-05-2020, 10:03 AM   #4
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We have 220 ah AGM batteries. 50% draw is 110 ah. But it's suggested that you try to keep your draw at 50% of that, or 55 ah.
I'm confused. If you have 220 AH AGM's I thought the recommended draw down was 50% of capacity so the 110 AH +/-. Why are you cutting it in half again?
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Old 05-05-2020, 10:24 AM   #5
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There are lots of charts showing the number of life cycles vs depth of discharge for lead acid batteries, and while 50% is a standard reference used in the RV industry, drawing less than that will improve lifetime. Check the chart here at a PowerThru paper (scroll down a bit) for an example.

By the way, lithium also exhibits life cycle changes with discharge & charging rates. At recommended charging rates under .5C, you can expect 3000 cycles...

As to the draw of Battleborn batteries, they state you can draw 100 amps per battery until completely discharged. I assume their BMS shuts them down before they reach 0 amp hours, and have read reports where individuals have drawn them down to 0V with no resulting problems. Again, 0V is probably because the BMS shut them down, not actual 0V in the cells.
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Old 05-05-2020, 11:20 AM   #6
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At least as save as lead acid batteries. These are a different technology from the power tool / computer / even Tesla batteries.

I used the same battery box to install two Battleborn GC2 sized lithium batteries. Used them this winter at Quartzsite, AZ and have to say it has been the best modification to the Escape 21 so far. I do admit to using quite a bit more power than most, so it isn't for everyone.


I have a page describing the installation on my website.

very nice install The new go power controller has a lifepo4 setting

https://gpelectric.com/wp-content/up...L_RevL-min.pdf


I have to check with battle born to see if its the proper charge rate. I know its not the right specs for the flooded interstates that come with escape, that was one reason i was victron solar controller.


I do some cold weather camping with nights down to single digits. If i went lithium it might be wise to relocate battery inside (19')
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Old 05-05-2020, 11:36 AM   #7
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I'm confused. If you have 220 AH AGM's I thought the recommended draw down was 50% of capacity so the 110 AH +/-. Why are you cutting it in half again?
I can use 110 ah's if I wish, but that will reduce the life of the battery. I'm trying to have the batteries last at least 5 years. Only a couple of times have we used over 55 ah's and that's always when we're using the furnace.

When I was investigating batteries, Trojan, Lifeline, and Crown gave the same suggestion for long life. Of course there's always exceptions.

Enjoy,

Perry
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Old 05-05-2020, 11:50 AM   #8
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Jon thats for the tip on the new Bluetooth wireless battery monitor
It looks like it is available in 500a and the other in july



https://www.victronenergy.com/batter...-battery-shunt


this might be the way to go on the escape I don't have to worry about running wires
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Old 05-05-2020, 12:36 PM   #9
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...
1. Is it possible to get the same usable amp hours out of one 100ah lithium as you would with the duel 6 volts?
...
A different take on this:
On average, the answer is "yes", as others have pointed out. But - for the occasional emergency you can pull about 220 amp-hours out of your new dual 6 V lead-acid batteries. True, it will shorten their overall lifetime a bit, and the effect is cumulative. But you are free to say "So what. I'll buy more in 6 years instead of 7 years". With a lithium you are hard limited to 100 ah with a single battery.

Another possible disadvantage: A single lithium can not supply enough instantaneous amperage to power a microwave, toaster, etc on an inverter, but it is a piece of cake for dual 6's.

Even with the above limitations I lust for a pair of Battleborn's.
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Old 05-05-2020, 01:00 PM   #10
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A different take on this:
On average, the answer is "yes", as others have pointed out. But - for the occasional emergency you can pull about 220 amp-hours out of your new dual 6 V lead-acid batteries. True, it will shorten their overall lifetime a bit, and the effect is cumulative. But you are free to say "So what. I'll buy more in 6 years instead of 7 years". With a lithium you are hard limited to 100 ah with a single battery..
--
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Stop and think what voltage you have once you've used 200 ah's. At what voltage do your appliances stop working, or worse yet, fry?

Enjoy,

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Old 05-05-2020, 02:39 PM   #11
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1. Is it possible to get the same usable amp hours out of one 100ah lithium as you would with the duel 6 volts?
Generally no, but it's close. Even if you use 90% of the rated capacity of the 100 Ah lithium battery, that's only 90 Ah, while the dual 6V batteries are rated for about 220 Ah so discharging them halfway yields 110 Ah.

I'll note that while fans of lithium batteries in RVs cite discharging to 10% (so using 90% of the rated capacity) as a major advantage of this type of battery, auto manufacturers routinely limit both the upper charging limit and lower discharge limit in their electric vehicle batteries to use 80% or even less of the rated capacity, to improve efficiency and extend life. There are chemical and mechanical differences in the cell designs, but the greater differences are probably expected cycle life (an EV is typically charged daily and used every day of the year, versus an RV which might see a couple dozen charge cycles a year on average), and the length of warranty (auto manufacturers are committed to replacing batteries which have failed or lost significant capacity for ten years).

Quote:
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2. If you started with one 100ah lithium could you add another a few years down the road?I know this is a problem with lead acid they should be the same age when wired together.
This is a balancing issue. The lithium batteries sold for RV use are intended as drop-in replacements for 12 V lead-acid batteries; they are not used in series. When connected in parallel mismatched batteries will not share the load equally, but the battery management hardware included within the drop-in package will disconnect each battery from the load when it gets to the minimum possible charge (so the two may drop out at different times) and will disconnect each battery from the charging source when it gets to the maximum allowable voltage (so the two may stop charging at different times)

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4. as i understand it it would be safe to have these inside the trailer ?
Maybe. Lithium-ion batteries don't produce dangerous gases the way vented lead-acid batteries do, so inside is okay from that point of view, but failure can be dramatic. The LiFePO4 cells used in RV products such as the BattleBorn batteries are much better in this respect than the types of lithium-ion cells used in EVs, but it may still be a concern. EVs generally do not place the battery inside the passenger compartment, and do contain them in substantial protective housings.
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Old 05-05-2020, 02:41 PM   #12
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The nice thing about most Escapes is that the batteries are in the camper
Well, two out of four current models... the 21' and 5.0TA have them inside; the 17' and 19' have them outside.
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Old 05-05-2020, 02:47 PM   #13
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As to the draw of Battleborn batteries, they state you can draw 100 amps per battery until completely discharged. I assume their BMS shuts them down before they reach 0 amp hours, and have read reports where individuals have drawn them down to 0V with no resulting problems. Again, 0V is probably because the BMS shut them down, not actual 0V in the cells.
That's correct: the BMS trips a disconnect relay when the cells (probably any individual cell) gets to a low enough voltage, so the voltage seen at the battery terminals will go suddenly from about 10 to 11 volts (not likely as high as 12 volts) to zero.

Similarly, while charging, when the cells are sufficiently charged the BMS will open the same relay and the current will drop suddenly to zero and the voltage will go to whatever the charger does with no battery connected.
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Old 05-05-2020, 03:07 PM   #14
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Well, two out of four current models... the 21' and 5.0TA have them inside; the 17' and 19' have them outside.
I stand corrected!

OTOH, when the 23' is released my "most" will be valid.

Enjoy,

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Old 05-05-2020, 03:32 PM   #15
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I stand corrected!

OTOH, when the 23' is released my "most" will be valid.

Enjoy,

Perry
actually the new 21 NE also has batteries out side so it three outside and 2 inside.
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Old 05-05-2020, 03:36 PM   #16
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Generally no, but it's close. Even if you use 90% of the rated capacity of the 100 Ah lithium battery, that's only 90 Ah, while the dual 6V batteries are rated for about 220 Ah so discharging them halfway yields 110 Ah.

I'll note that while fans of lithium batteries in RVs cite discharging to 10% (so using 90% of the rated capacity) as a major advantage of this type of battery, auto manufacturers routinely limit both the upper charging limit and lower discharge limit in their electric vehicle batteries to use 80% or even less of the rated capacity, to improve efficiency and extend life. There are chemical and mechanical differences in the cell designs, but the greater differences are probably expected cycle life (an EV is typically charged daily and used every day of the year, versus an RV which might see a couple dozen charge cycles a year on average), and the length of warranty (auto manufacturers are committed to replacing batteries which have failed or lost significant capacity for ten years).


This is a balancing issue. The lithium batteries sold for RV use are intended as drop-in replacements for 12 V lead-acid batteries; they are not used in series. When connected in parallel mismatched batteries will not share the load equally, but the battery management hardware included within the drop-in package will disconnect each battery from the load when it gets to the minimum possible charge (so the two may drop out at different times) and will disconnect each battery from the charging source when it gets to the maximum allowable voltage (so the two may stop charging at different times)


Maybe. Lithium-ion batteries don't produce dangerous gases the way vented lead-acid batteries do, so inside is okay from that point of view, but failure can be dramatic. The LiFePO4 cells used in RV products such as the BattleBorn batteries are much better in this respect than the types of lithium-ion cells used in EVs, but it may still be a concern. EVs generally do not place the battery inside the passenger compartment, and do contain them in substantial protective housings.



very good information . I know they say to olny draw down your duel 6 volts down to 50% and if you olny draw to 75% it will extend life even farther . But how far can you draw them down with out the low voltage affecting the appliances?
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Old 05-05-2020, 04:24 PM   #17
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Of course you probably know they weigh a lot less as well...so I am told.

You can always add another battery as long install a switch so you can select either the old battery or the new battery but never to the two together at the the same time.
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Old 05-05-2020, 04:33 PM   #18
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very good information . I know they say to olny draw down your duel 6 volts down to 50% and if you olny draw to 75% it will extend life even farther . But how far can you draw them down with out the low voltage affecting the appliances?
It depends on the appliance. Lights, even LEDs will probably operate down to 10V, but somewhere in that area the furnace stops. Most of the RV appliances spec a low voltage.

In the case of an inverter, the real problem is the high current draw. With a pair of 6V lead acid batteries at 50% (around 12V) you will find that the heavy load produced by an inverter running a microwave will drop the input voltage to the inverter below its cutoff (usually 10.5V). The drop only happens under load. This is one of the reasons I switched to lithium. I found that after running the microwave for dinner, a couple of hours of furnace time, and the many other loads I typically run, I was not able to run the microwave for breakfast. I know that is a bit picky, but I didn't want my batteries determining what I had for breakfast!

The same thing happens with lithium batteries, but to a lesser extent. I've never tried to run my microwave with the lithium batteries at 10% (in fact, never had the batteries at 10%) but I have run it with the batteries at 76%. With a 140 amp load on a pair of Battleborn lithium batteries, the voltage dropped to 12.2V, then back to 13.1V after shutting it off.

For those concerned about capacity, I've been told that Battleborn batteries provide a full 100 amp hours before shutting down. The battery is actually rated at 110 amp hours, but must shut down before reaching 0V, which, I believe, would kill the battery permanently.

I agree with Alan - the pair of 6V batteries does have more capacity if you are willing to beat it up a bit. The 3000 cycles that Battleborn warranties their batteries for is 100 amp hour discharges. Treat them more kindly, and you can get as many as 6000 cycles. Do the math to determine how many camping days that is for you. I know I don't have that many left!
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Old 05-05-2020, 05:49 PM   #19
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actually the new 21 NE also has batteries out side so it three outside and 2 inside.
Apparently I'm having a bad day.

Enjoy,

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Old 05-05-2020, 06:58 PM   #20
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...
The 3000 cycles that Battleborn warranties their batteries for is 100 amp hour discharges. Treat them more kindly, and you can get as many as 6000 cycles. Do the math to determine how many camping days that is for you. I know I don't have that many left!

For the $$$ challenged, such as myself, the above is the real question regarding whether or not invest in lithium batteries.

My camping-day average, based on 5 years of ownership, is about 100 camping-days per year. My expected camping lifetime is another 5 years. That's a measly 500 cycles use of a battery that could do as many as 6000 on a good day (good decade).

I may change my tune the next time I have to lift those 70 pound AGM's out of the trailer for replacement.

More likely I will purchase a single Battleborn for my electric trolling motor. That battery has to be carried from the car to the water for each fishing trip. Plus the voltage drop with each withdrawn amp-hour affects motor performance - much more than say LEDs in the trailer. So having a higher voltage for the full 100 AH on my boat is more cost effective and the weight penalty is more problematic - all adds up to my depleting the credit card for boat use rather than camping. I anticipate getting more than 3X the mileage on the water from a lithium, which if lucky might equate to 1% more fish caught?

But I reserve the right to spend $$$ on expensive camping trinkets if the urge hits me.
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