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Old 09-09-2016, 09:40 AM   #21
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In all the years of filling these tanks I never had anyone use the bleeder or whatever it's called till I started traveling out west. In the old days it was by weight, and once in a great while someone still does it that way. Mostly now it must be by back pressure or some such. The pump just cuts out when done. Many do still have the scale that they put the tank on to fill, but they don't use it. At least around my house.
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:42 AM   #22
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No propane getting to any appliance!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ice-breaker View Post
The issue seems to be that when you had the tanks filled, you failed to completely screw on the hose connector from the trailer to the tanks. As others have stated, if the connectors are not tightened completely, they will not allow the propane to be delivered from the tanks into the hose. (And the indicators on your regulator will show "red" as you observed. This was probably a worthwhile lesson for you to learn, as I suspect you will not make the same mistake again.


While I could be wrong, I tightened up the hose connector very tightly to the tank. There was no more to tighten. I think it has something to do with the way the first guy filled the tank. I have no idea what that was, but the guy today got the vapor to come out.

Of course I don't know too much about that at all, I just know that when I brought them back today at work. I did nothing difference in the way I connected to the trailer. Kind of like at work when someone says there is something wrong with their computer, and I go over to troubleshoot, it always been a perfectly. They always get mad![emoji1]


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Old 09-09-2016, 09:43 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by padlin View Post
In all the years of filling these tanks I never had anyone use the bleeder or whatever it's called till I started traveling out west. In the old days it was by weight, and once in a great while someone still does it that way. Mostly now it must be by back pressure or some such. The pump just cuts out when done. Many do still have the scale that they put the tank on to fill, but they don't use it. At least around my house.
That's interesting. Most of the local dealers around here don't use the bleeder valve, but when we're in Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, etc, many of them do. Why the west?

The fill level of the tank can be affected by altitude and by temperature, so maybe the use of the bleeder somehow compensates for that? No idea.

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Old 09-09-2016, 09:50 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Vermilye View Post
There seems to be a number of different ways suppliers "fill" tanks. Some do it on a scale by weight (although I haven't had anyone use that technique in a couple of years), others open the relief screw & fill until vapor comes out, and at least one just filled the tank until it stopped. I've ended up with everything from 3.8 gallons to 4.9 gallons in an empty tank. According to my weight to volume calculations, 4.7 gallons is a full tank...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbryan4 View Post
Many propane dealers (including most of the ones we use) will open the bleeder valve about 1/4 to 1/2 turn during filling and look for liquid coming out. That ensures the tank is full regardless of whether you're filling by weight or by volume.

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In 40 years, and 100's upon 100's of propane bottles being refilled, I have never seen this bleeder valve fill before. I never even knew it was possible. Maybe here in Canada is is law to fill by weight?
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:00 AM   #25
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Over 30 years of filling tanks at many different stations, and all use the bleeder screw every time. It MUST be a West thing.
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:19 AM   #26
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Over 30 years of filling tanks at many different stations, and all use the bleeder screw every time. It MUST be a West thing.
It is definitely not a West thing, as I have never seen it (if Canada is allowed consideration ). It must be a Western US thing. I guess on my trips down there I have never needed to refill my bottles. Because I only pay for how much they actually add to my bottles, I usually start any long trip with them full.

I assume then that filling by use of this bleeder valve, they are still able to charge for what is used by volume?
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:29 AM   #27
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When we were getting a bottle filled in Durango CO I asked why the funny way to fill, was told it's a state reg, not surprising.

Just looked it up for MA, says dispensers must use the Propane Councils recommendations which say for under 200lb tanks you must go by weight. There are auto shutoffs that go by the weight, which is what I must run into locally. Going through the councils training manual there is nothing about bleeding except during a purge.

May be that some states use a different set of regs.
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Old 09-09-2016, 11:35 AM   #28
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In a closed system a bleeder is necessary to allow the liquid to enter the system, otherwise air will prevent filling.
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Old 09-09-2016, 11:42 AM   #29
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It is definitely not a West thing, as I have never seen it (if Canada is allowed consideration ). It must be a Western US thing. I guess on my trips down there I have never needed to refill my bottles. Because I only pay for how much they actually add to my bottles, I usually start any long trip with them full.

I assume then that filling by use of this bleeder valve, they are still able to charge for what is used by volume?
Yes, Western States thing. Didn't mean to exclude our amigos to the north. I have always paid by volume in U.S. gallons and tenths of gals.. So only pay for what is added. The bleeder valve must be a state by state regulation as it is always used in my experience, filling only in CA.
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Old 09-09-2016, 11:50 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
In a closed system a bleeder is necessary to allow the liquid to enter the system, otherwise air will prevent filling.
True, but provided there's no air in the tank (and there shouldn't be when it's empty, since as the propane is emptied, it's not replaced with air) there's no need to purge it. I've only ever assumed they open the bleeder when filling to verify the fill level.
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Old 09-09-2016, 12:09 PM   #31
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Of course I don't know too much about that at all, I just know that when I brought them back today at work. I did nothing difference in the way I connected to the trailer. Kind of like at work when someone says there is something wrong with their computer, and I go over to troubleshoot, it always been a perfectly. They always get mad![emoji1]
Yay! Now you can go out and enjoy probably one of your last weekends out camping. Happy for ya that the propane tank thingie worked, one way or the other.

And, yeah, I hear ya on the computer issue. It'll happen to me, Dirk comes to look at it and things are *just fine*. Drives me nuts. I blame it all on Microsquish
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Old 09-09-2016, 12:25 PM   #32
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Hi: All... I don't know or care if it's correct but I always called it a spitter valve. When propane spits out of it and turns to frost... usually at that point the tank is really full. Once when refilling a tank for the trailer I left the black thingy on the regulator not pointing at either tank but at me. Nothing worked on propane in the trailer. Alf
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Old 09-10-2016, 01:15 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Jim Bennett View Post
I have never heard of, or seen such a thing. When I refuel the tanks, they just fill until they hit the stamped weight, then stop. No screwdriver needed.
Yes, that is the standard fill-by-weight method, used for small cylinders everywhere I've seen in Alberta.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermilye View Post
There seems to be a number of different ways suppliers "fill" tanks. Some do it on a scale by weight (although I haven't had anyone use that technique in a couple of years), others open the relief screw & fill until vapor comes out, and at least one just filled the tank until it stopped.
That would be (in order):
  1. fill by weight - a correct method
  2. fill by level using the 80% level valve (or "spit valve"), watching for liquid to come out - a valid method if the tank has an 80% level valve
  3. dangerously stupid or lazy guy illegally depending the OPD (a safety backup) as the primary fill control method

Quote:
Originally Posted by escape artist View Post
Hi: All... I don't know or care if it's correct but I always called it a spitter valve. When propane spits out of it and turns to frost... usually at that point the tank is really full.
The "spitter" or 80% level valve is connected to a dip tube which opens into the tank at the level corresponding to 80% of the total cylinder volume, which is the maximum allowed level of liquid in a propane tank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbryan4 View Post
Many propane dealers (including most of the ones we use) will open the bleeder valve about 1/4 to 1/2 turn during filling and look for liquid coming out. That ensures the tank is full regardless of whether you're filling by weight or by volume.
That is the only way to "fill by volume" - filling until the meter shows a particular amount is not reliable and not likely legal anywhere in North America. Using the 80% level valve while filling by weight seems to me like just a pointless waste of propane and source of pollution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by padlin View Post
In all the years of filling these tanks I never had anyone use the bleeder or whatever it's called till I started traveling out west. In the old days it was by weight, and once in a great while someone still does it that way. Mostly now it must be by back pressure or some such. The pump just cuts out when done. Many do still have the scale that they put the tank on to fill, but they don't use it. At least around my house.
See above... the pump does not know the level in the tank so if it is shutting down on high pressure (not some sort of automated scale) that's
  1. dangerously stupid or lazy guy illegally depending the OPD (a safety backup) as the primary fill control method
To be fair, larger tanks can have a "stop fill" valve (my motorhome does) which is designed to be the primary method of controlling the fill, but
  • small cylinders just have OPDs, not stop fill devices
  • when controlling the fill with an approved stop fill device, the 80% level valve is to be used as well as a backup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bennett View Post
I assume then that filling by use of this bleeder valve, they are still able to charge for what is used by volume?
Only if they run the flow through a meter, and if they do that they can charge by volume regardless of how they decide when it's full.
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Old 09-10-2016, 01:16 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by cpaharley2008 View Post
In a closed system a bleeder is necessary to allow the liquid to enter the system, otherwise air will prevent filling.
No...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbryan4 View Post
True, but provided there's no air in the tank (and there shouldn't be when it's empty, since as the propane is emptied, it's not replaced with air) there's no need to purge it. I've only ever assumed they open the bleeder when filling to verify the fill level.
Correct. The space in a propane cylinder which is not liquid propane is propane vapour. When liquid propane is pumped in, sufficient vapour condenses to make room for the additional propane - the liquid and vapour phases are always in equilibrium. There is no "venting" of air or anything else when a propane cylinder is refilled.
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Old 09-10-2016, 01:27 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by nathanj04011 View Post
I was able to light the stove and start the fridge. I have no knowledge of such things but is it possible that there was an airlock or something?
If you do get air in the system (by leaving something disconnected, perhaps) then you won't be able to light appliances, but you'll still see the indication on auto-changeover regulator go green, and you'll still hear the hiss of gas coming out of burners (for instance). None of the hardware in the propane system has any idea whether air or propane vapour is being pushed through it. In fact, regulators are tested using air, and new propane systems should be tested with air (in case they leak) before purging out the air with propane.

The idea of a "air lock" would usually refer to a liquid (water or hydraulic fluid) system not working properly because of a gas (such as air) bubble in it. There's not supposed to be liquid anywhere in the propane system except in the tank, so the bubble thing isn't an issue.
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