Solar Question

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Dave Walter

I find that having solar is super convenient. I almost never plug my trailer in to AC power and seldom get sites with electricity.

Around here you can get a non-electric site that's $5-15 cheaper. These sites also allow us to get away from the Titanic RV's with 70" TV screens on the side and dual air-conditioners.

We have a seasonal lot at a campground eight-tenths of a mile away, where our camper resides when we're not traveling. We are the last seasonal lot next to the first daily lot. One night I woke up at 2 am with the Titanic's 70" outside TV running. Of course they were all in bed sleeping in air-conditioned comfort. Couldn't sleep, because of the flashing light of the TV, so I went over and turned their TV off.

I have many stories of what I've seen and heard. Don't get me started on leaving your outside lights on.

Enjoy,

Perry

[Jim Bennett]

Originally Posted by Perryb67

I have many stories of what I've seen and heard. Don't get me started on leaving your outside lights on.

C'mon Perry, tell us how you really feel.

[Brian B-P]

As others have tried to explain

1. the solar panels convert the energy to sunshine to electrical energy,
2. the charge controller regulates the rate that energy from the panel goes into the battery,
3. the battery stores energy, and
4. the stuff you plug in uses energy.

So for a solar system you need:

• panels and a controller (Escape's solar package),
• a battery (Escape standard battery, or the optional larger battery setup of two 6-volt batteries),
• stuff to use the power (the trailer's standard 12-volt system, plus optionally an inverter to convert power so you can use 120 volt stuff),
• and of course the wiring that some with these parts to connect everything.

Rick, since you bought the solar system option, you have everything you need. You might want lots of battery capacity (the dual 6-volt batteries), but you don't need it, and maybe you already bought that option too.

[Brian B-P]

Since batteries are not perfectly efficient, you need to put more into them than you will get out, but they allow you to use energy (run stuff) at a different time than you get energy (have the panels in the sun).

The rate that energy is flowing is called power (measured in watts). Sometimes people use current (in amps) in these discussions, assuming that everything is at the same voltage (not quite true) and so you understand that power is proportional to current. They also multiply current by time to get an amount of battery charge - measure in amp-hours - which is almost proportional to energy. Doing these things requires care in stating the units (amps, amp-hours, etc) or it get very confusing.

So as long as the electrical power (or current) going into the battery is less than the power (current) going out, the battery's energy level (called the "state of charge") runs down, like the level in a water tank if you're draining it out faster than you're pouring more in. That happens whenever you use electrical equipment in your solar-equipped trailer at night, and not connected to another charging source (such as shore power or a vehicle).

As long as the electrical power going into the battery is more than the power going out, the battery's energy or charge level rises, like the level in a water tank if you're pouring water in faster than you're draining it out. That happens whenever you have your solar-equipped trailer in the sun, and are using less power for electrical equipment than the output of the panels plus any other connected charging source (such as shore power or a vehicle).

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by John in Santa Cruz

'use your solar for 8 hours' ? ? what does that even mean?

It doesn't mean anything by itself, both because it is not the solar system which is being used when devices are turned on and using power, and because time doesn't by itself measure energy.

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

You have to include the next phrase for it to make sense, “...if you use your solar for 8 hours, it takes more than 8 hours to recharge...”

That still doesn't make sense, because time is still not a measure of energy.

So what does that "8 hour" thing mean...
if by some strange coincidence you were using exactly the same amount of power that the panels could produce, and did that for a period of time (such as 8 hours) during which there was no sunshine, then later used no power at all while the panels were in the sun, it would take more than 8 hours to put back in the battery the amount of energy that you had taken out. This is a strange and specific scenario that doesn't have any connection to reality, but was probably an attempt to say that you need to put back into the batteries more energy than you took out.

[alanmalk]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

So what I think is being said here is that if you use 8 hours worth of sunshine, you need to put something like 9.6 hours of sunshine back (using the 120% approximation rule), in order to maintain the sunshine balance of the universe. My question regarding this is whether the sun is subject to the “don’t discharge below 50% rule” for lead acid batteries, or is the sun more like the lithium type batteries that can go deeper? Also, does anyone know the recommended voltages for sun charging?

The sun is more like a hydrogen battery. Yes, you can discharge the sun to below 50%, and you might solve global warming at the same time. But beach-goers might be upset with you. Also, there is a real possibility of the sun going nova if you discharge it too much (similar in a way to lithium batteries.)

To recharge the sun you would need to borrow an equivalent amount of hydrogen from a near-by star, probably Alpha Centauri or Proxima Centauri, 4.3 light-years away. This is an expensive solution. But, since the sun uses a nuclear reaction, rather than a chemical reaction like lead-acid batteries, you would only need to replace 100%, rather than 120%.

I think the voltages of the sun are in the range of millions of volts.

Best of Luck,
Alan

[padlin]

Originally Posted by Mr. Bill

Is solar really necessary if I rarely boondock and always have a generator with me. Just curious if it’s really worth the additional cost. Thank you.

Being from TX, do you use the gen for running A/C? if so, then you'd still need to take it along even with solar.

In my case, if I do not need A/C, solar supplies all our power needs so the gen stays home.

[Perry Butler]

Originally Posted by Jim Bennett

C'mon Perry, tell us how you really feel.

Enjoy,

Perry

[steve dunham]

We have a permanent solar panel on the roof of our trailer plus a portable 100 watt solar panel . We do not have nor have we found a need for a generator .
If I was ordering a new trailer , I would get the optional factory solar system .

[SFDavis50]

Another advantage of the rooftop solar is that during winter storage the batteries stay fully charged so I don't need to feel concerned when/if the nighttime temps drop to -10F or if there is a long period of subfreezing weather.

[galand53]

I have used solar on my trailer for 7 years and have found that portable panels are better if you plan to occasionally park under trees or if they are mounted on the trailer's roof, you will have to park in the full sun when you camp which in some climates is unbearable.

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by alanmalk

The sun is more like a hydrogen battery. Yes, you can discharge the sun to below 50%, and you might solve global warming at the same time. But beach-goers might be upset with you. Also, there is a real possibility of the sun going nova if you discharge it too much (similar in a way to lithium batteries.)

To recharge the sun you would need to borrow an equivalent amount of hydrogen from a near-by star, probably Alpha Centauri or Proxima Centauri, 4.3 light-years away. This is an expensive solution. But, since the sun uses a nuclear reaction, rather than a chemical reaction like lead-acid batteries, you would only need to replace 100%, rather than 120%.

I think the voltages of the sun are in the range of millions of volts.

Best of Luck,
Alan

[emoji38]

I was starting to thing I’d have to somehow relate this discussion to poutine to get anyone to bite.

[jimjola@gmail.com]

Originally Posted by camppros

We are having 170w solar with charge converter , installed in our new 17 b Escape that we pick up in May.
The question is, do I need anything else to go with it?
I know little about solar and want to make sure that I'm not forgetting something .
Further if there is anything anyone wants to add to educate me on solar ,I'm all ears.
Thank you all in advance.
Rick
P.S WHAT ARE TAGS FOR ??

A solar system for any RV will consist of the following components:
1. Solar panels
2. Deep cycle batteries (Minimum 2 six volt batteries wired in series to produce 12v dc.
3. A charge controller to keep your batteries from overcharging (solar panels typically produce 19-21 volts dc. Your batteries probably have a peak charge of 13.6 volts. You MUST have a charge controller to keep the batteries healthy(
4. If you want to run your AC appliances while boon docking, you will need an inverter. I use a 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter. It is large enough to run the microwave, toaster oven, TV, and chargers for all digital devices. It will not run the Air Conditioner. The inverter should be PURE SINE WAVE. Many electric motors will run hot on any other type of inverter. Also, my Apple laptop charger runs only on Pure Sine Wave. The cost of the Pure Sine Wave inverters has dropped dramatically in the last few years. To reiterate, Pure Sine Wave is the way to go on inverters.
Once the inverter is installed, plug your shore power cable into the inverter. Switch the on-board battery charger off. Leave it off. If you ever do plug into shore power again, turn off the inverter and remove the shore power plug. Your rig will run on shore power, the inverter will be idle, and the batteries will charge via your solar system.
I have built both off grid solar for my home and solar for my rig. Solar is the way to go.

[sclifrickson]

@jimjoka, Couple of things:

Originally Posted by jimjola@gmail.com

Your batteries probably have a peak charge of 13.6 volts.

This is not true for many batteries. The dual 6V Interstate’s that Escape installs, for instance, require charging in excess of 15V some of the time (equalization) in order to maintain optimum battery health and longevity. There are lots of threads about this.

Originally Posted by jimjola@gmail.com

Once the inverter is installed, plug your shore power cable into the inverter. Switch the on-board battery charger off. Leave it off. If you ever do plug into shore power again, turn off the inverter and remove the shore power plug. Your rig will run on shore power, the inverter will be idle, and the batteries will charge via your solar system.

This is rather confusing. And sort of contradicts my understanding of these systems. Maybe I’m being slow today.

[John in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by jimjola@gmail.com

Once the inverter is installed, plug your shore power cable into the inverter. Switch the on-board battery charger off. Leave it off. ....

EEEEK, I would NOT do that, I would instead wire the inverter to a transfer relay such that the DC converter is NOT connected to the inverter, but the other circuits are, except the AC circuit, so there's no WAY you can run those that on the inverter.

as it is, we never use our microwave, so the only things we need 120VAC for are running some small chargers, primarily my wife's laptop which doesn' thave a DC supply, so I use a portable '400W' (really 200W sustained) pure-sine inverter for this, that plugs into a 'powerpole' 30A DC outlet I put near the main power center.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by jimjola@gmail.com

3. A charge controller to keep your batteries from overcharging (solar panels typically produce 19-21 volts dc. Your batteries probably have a peak charge of 13.6 volts. You MUST have a charge controller to keep the batteries healthy.

Not quite that simple. The panels only produce that voltage when in full sun and not connected to anything (the open-circuit voltage or VOC). When connected to a battery, they produce something moderately higher than the battery's internal voltage. A controller is needed to prevent over-charging, but the controller doesn't need to do anything until the battery is nearly fully charged.

[Brian B-P]

Originally Posted by jimjola@gmail.com

Once the inverter is installed, plug your shore power cable into the inverter. Switch the on-board battery charger off. Leave it off. If you ever do plug into shore power again, turn off the inverter and remove the shore power plug. Your rig will run on shore power, the inverter will be idle, and the batteries will charge via your solar system.

That works, but is inconvenient and risks discharging the battery in a pointless cycle of trying to charge itself if you ever plug the shore power cord into the inverter and forget to turn the converter off.

A small practical issue is that an Escape shore power cord has the usual TT-30 plug on the end, and the inverter will not have this connector. A proper transfer switch installation just seems much more reasonable.

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

This is rather confusing. And sort of contradicts my understanding of these systems. Maybe I’m being slow today.

No, you're just expecting a properly built system.

Escape sells a system configuration with a transfer switch, to handle this properly as John explained.

[jimjola@gmail.com]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

@jimjoka, Couple of things:



This is not true for many batteries. The dual 6V Interstate’s that Escape installs, for instance, require charging in excess of 15V some of the time (equalization) in order to maintain optimum battery health and longevity. There are lots of threads about this.






This is rather confusing. And sort of contradicts my understanding of these systems. Maybe I’m being slow today.

It is true that all batteries have a peak charge point, a float charge point, and a equalization charge point. What I was trying to say is that a charge controller will prevent your batteries from being damaged by an an overcharge situation, regardless of the voltage(s) for which they are specified.
You seem to be suggesting that a charge controller is not necessary

[sclifrickson]

Originally Posted by jimjola@gmail.com

It is true that all batteries have a peak charge point, a float charge point, and a equalization charge point. What I was trying to say is that a charge controller will prevent your batteries from being damaged by an an overcharge situation, regardless of the voltage(s) for which they are specified.

You seem to be suggesting that a charge controller is not necessary

I wasn’t suggesting anything other than what I clearly stated, which is that your assertion that batteries to be found in an Escape trailer “have a peak charge of 13.6 volts” is incorrect.

Regarding your additional comments, I will add that just as important as preventing overcharging, a charge controller is vital to ensure sufficient charging, which is something extremely difficult and unlikely to be achieved at your recommended 13.6V.

[jimjola@gmail.com]

Originally Posted by sclifrickson

I wasn’t suggesting anything other than what I clearly stated, which is that your assertion that batteries to be found in an Escape trailer “have a peak charge of 13.6 volts” is incorrect.

Regarding your additional comments, I will add that just as important as preventing overcharging, a charge controller is vital to ensure sufficient charging, which is something extremely difficult and unlikely to be achieved at your recommended 13.6V.

Got it. Guess I am done with this forum forever. Thought you folks could communicate civilly. You can't. I was trying to help and do not need the aggravation of someone nit picking the years of experience that I offer. Goodbye